F1 2022 thread - see post 1 for rules

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805430#Comment_119805430

The FIA will also have to change their process in order to stop other teams overspending like this. It is the first year of the cap, so it was bound to have problems. The main take away is that this wasn't cheating at all.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805437#Comment_119805437

Exactly.

If RB had tried to mislead the FIA, then throw the book at them. But they did not attempt to do that.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805441#Comment_119805441

Cheating such a subjective term and almost always impossible to prove. You can never know the intent behind an action, unless you're a mind reader or they are dumb enough to fully document it.

The biggest issue the FIA have now is precedent. Any future breaches less than 5% that recieve harsher penalties is just going to end up in the courts unless they can prove the team was being dishonest/cheating on purpose.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805276#Comment_119805276

Call it tripe all you want, but nothing will convince me that RB didn’t know what they were doing.

A well-oiled machine like that makes a balls of the cost caps when nearly every other team (most with far less resources) didn’t?

Anyone buying it is having a laugh. The problem for the FIA is that they can’t prove it.

El_Duderino 09

Ah shur, like anything in F1, it's a compromise. It's not simply a sport where the rules are applied whatever the consequences. It's a business and entertainment 'circus' also.

The bigger teams will always have more influence over making rules and how rules are applied. Red bull is a big team with a long history as sponsor and team owner. F1 was never going to genuinely harm them with the punishment. So they allowed RB to negotiate their own punishment to avoid upsetting one of their main stakeholders. God help them if they ever have to punish Ferrari. They'll probably do ot in secret as they did with the dodgy engine a few years ago.

If the FIA manage to stop costs spiraling and the smaller teams can catch up to an extent, then they'll be happy. There's little they can do about their main teams breaking the rules. All they have to do is threaten to walk away and the FIA is bunched. This whole thing is pretty shady and I doubt we'll ever know the actually details. No point pretending we do.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805256#Comment_119805256

Whats the point of a cost cap if it doesn't include billions spent on engine development etc, or driver salaries etc

It's pointless unless teams aren't able to spend large sums of money elsewhere to gain performance on the track.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805460#Comment_119805460

Cheating in this context is pretty clear though. RB were upfront with the FIA and had discussions with them about the whole thing, there was no misleading by RB to try and hide costs etc, add in the amount they were over by and if this is "cheating", it is not done very well at all.

The intent here is the misinterpretation of costs and tax credits etc. It is a mistake, there is no malice behind it at all, even the FIA said this.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805491#Comment_119805491

I think you are getting into conspiracy theory territory there with your last sentence.

PsychoPete

Sky coverage will be unbearable this weekend with them banging on about this

bennyx_o

Picture showing the history of Sauber in F1. 2010 has to be the stand out

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805532#Comment_119805532

I think you've taken me up wrong here. I wasn't implying that RB cheated, far from it. Just trying to highlight how difficult a charge of cheating would be to apply, especially in a sport with so many interpretations and clarifications.

There's no indication they tried to hide anything from the FIA, they did try to stretch some of the interpretations a bit to far though. They seem to have been on the level with the FIA. Honer should have kept quiet on the entire issue though, he's come out of this with more than a little egg on his face after his very strong words a couple of weeks back.

thefa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805460#Comment_119805460

Think it would be tough to use as a precedent for all overspends less than 5%. The amount of the overspend is called out at 0.37% and noted at the lower end of a minor breach. Would be nice if they clarified the basis for it.

KillerShamrock

How is the use of tax credits fair in this im sure all the uk based teams used them but what about Ferrari/alpha tauri (Italy) and Sauber/alfa (switzerland I think) and Haas (but they have a UK headquarters) they arent uk based would they get the same treatment same level of tax credits/amount refunded?

It should be spending before tax credits so that means red bull were at least 5+ million over the what about the rest of the teams are they all over too? most likely!

Looking at it like that 5Mill + over on catering and social security makes this look even more dodgy they just couldnt pair it down by 400K.

Apparently the FIA got them down from 1.8mill to 400k using a tax credit they missed.

Sorry but you set a cost cap it should be that and that only, no tax credits or anything to help you skirt rules or cheat the system you are given a budget of £135mil you should be made stick to it all things final no ifs, ands or buts. You dont you lose points or get DQ'd from one or both championships or have the fine taken from your next years budget. Not this Paltry slap on the wrist the Red bull got.

This is Fernando is faster than you territory all over again something that they claim is enforcable but clearly isnt and has already been made a mockery of most likely by all teams red bull just got caught out and by accepting the ABA they are not denying despite Horner insisting they were well below.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805873#Comment_119805873

It's a 1.6% overspend, as per the FIA and agreed to by RB. That's why it's going to be a difficult to argue it's not a precedent.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805772#Comment_119805772

Toto as well, he had said that a team was "massively" over the budget. That isn't the case either.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805907#Comment_119805907

I hadn't realised it would include tax credits. It would be interesting to see how much they spend before the tax credits in each country. I'd be surprised if local corruption doesn't come into play. Teams with the ability to lobby government to carve out tax breaks.

I wonder will there ever be an incebyto outsource some production to low wage economies like China or Eastern Europe. Presumably they could smudge is all over with more national borders and more tax regimes.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805957#Comment_119805957

In fairness to Toto, 1.8 million is a massive amount of money. The big difference is that he's not the one currently in breach of the rules so I'll cut him a little slack on this one.

Munstersrebel

h

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805957#Comment_119805957

toto is the biggest gaslighter in F! he and his manbaby Hamilton. Remember how he could 'barely' get out of the car and Sky lapping it up and hyping it. And then the FIA decides to enforce an addon to the chassis and surprise surprise Merc has an homologated example within 48 hours from the FIA releasing it to combat the porpoising. And toto gleefully predicting it would hamper his opponents speed. Add to this that his former personal lawyer joined the FIA...

But sure blame RB. Merc and ferrari hide this costs in the other business components and none cares... because Sky dont care and LH benefits from it...

Mercedes AMG Media network is Sky's new name

dulpit

The annoying elements here are that red bull said (on f1 show earlier) that they didn't do the trial run last year. So any honest mistakes that could have been ironed out didn't get a chance.

And realistically, if you polled everyone last year and asked which team was most likely to breach the cost cap, I'd wager nearly everyone would have said red bull.

I did see a great suggestion that a better punishment is ballast to the car. The greater the overspend the heavier the ballast. Weight has such an impact it would cause major issues, would bring teams into line.

dulpit

Oh and I also saw that the fine isn't counted in the cost cap, so for the big teams it doesn't affect them at all. For the teams that are not yet at the cost cap a fine would cripple them, seems very unfair.

thefa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805938#Comment_119805938

Take a look at the full statement. 0.37% is the right final figure as per the FIA. Arguing 1.6% is basically saying I’m including one part they done wrong but not the other.

Your argument makes no sense in any case. The concept of applying a flat fine for every overspend between 0-5% based on this is flawed.

McFly85

The punishment definitely feels lenient but predictably so. As others have said the crucial element is the fact that there was no attempt at deception from RB. I’m still surprised they haven’t reduced the RB cap for a year or 2.

Im sure the Sky coverage now will be purely about how lenient the FIA have been.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119806242#Comment_119806242

Taken directly from the BBC article

"This amounts to an understatement of accounts of nearly 5% and an adjusted overspend of 1.6%.

A total of 13 points of non-compliance included an understatement related to their new power-unit business and fixed costs, and costs relevant to catering, social security, apprenticeships, inventory (unused parts) and non-F1 activities.

The fine has to be paid within the next 30 days.

The FIA said that had Red Bull applied the correct treatment to a notional tax credit, the team would have exceeded the cap by only £432,652."

So 1.6% was the overspend. If RB had correctly applied the tax credit then it would have been 0.37% but they didn't, so they weren't.

I'm in no way suggesting a flat fine would be applied. My argument is that when more severe punishments are handed out in the future and it goes through the courts there's a good precedent to have it overturned unless there are extenuating circumstances.

McFly85

Well it sounds like the FIA consider the breach in real terms to be the 0.37%. Which I don’t think has any real relevance on future breaches unless they’re all due to misapplied tax credits.

If there was a 2% breach in future that was found to be hidden from the FIA and there was an attempt to hide it then you’d imagine the punishment would be far more severe. There’s no real point in looking at this breach and what it means for the future.

Ultimate Gowlbag

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119806065#Comment_119806065

😂😂😂

thefa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119806305#Comment_119806305

You can choose to be as pedantic as you wish on the wording but the fact is the FIA summarized that the net effect of all the accounting understatements was 0.37% over the budget cap. That was the basis for the fine.

A strong precedence based off this doesn’t make much sense unless you’re talking about lower breaches getting more harshly punished which wasn’t really implied from your earlier posts on about anything less than 5%, etc. The materiality has been identified and mitigating factors are there.

AMKC

How is 2010 the standout? 2007 is there standout for me they were 2nd in the constructors that year.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119806764#Comment_119806764

Look at the team name and look at the engine...

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119806065#Comment_119806065

I'm relieved that intellectually we have arrived at using terms like "manbaby". Does this show us the mentality of your average RB apologist?

flazio

I think this is where I step away from Formula 1 fandom until next March

Munstersrebel

I use man baby because his ego needs to be very carefully managed. Russel outshone him first half of the season and not one peep from Merc. Its always LH, with the porposing he acted like he couldnt walk straight...

If you want to call me anything... call me a saddened Vettel fan. the lad wasted his best years on Ferrari and Aston.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807648#Comment_119807648

Vettel spent his best years very well at red bull. Until he was beaten by a young Ricciardo and left. Then he was pretty good for a year and a half at Ferrari until it fell apart in mid 2018 and he added a lot of spins and crashes to his performances. Then he was comprehensively beaten by a young Charles Leclerc. He's nowhere near his best at Aston Martin and he's never really shaken his tenancy for spins and crashes.

He's dead right to retire. But the notion that he's been at his best at AM, is bonkers.

El_Duderino 09

There's a good analysis of thr cost cap agreement between RB and the FIA on The-Race podcast.

There are a few parts which look like sloppy accounting but the catering looks dodgy.

They also misinterpreted the sick leave rules. Rules say they have to count the original sick staff members' pay when they're sick, but don't count the replacement's wage (unless the original sick staff member dies and is permanently replaced. In that case they count the replacement and not the original staff member) this was it prevents them subbing in people with specialist skills at different times in the season. RB made a balls of that.

But overall the point is that by doing the agreement they accept a less severe punishment than if they didn't admit to it. That's wwhy the punishment is less severe than some would have liked. That's the whole point of the agreement rather than fighting it out.

[The Race F1 Podcast] What Red Bull's cost cap breach penalty means for F1 #theRaceF1Podcast 

https://podcastaddict.com/episode/147568019 via @PodcastAddict

Munstersrebel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807790#Comment_119807790

Eum i kinda said he wasted years in AM and Ferrari. And look where Dani the magnificent is now? Dropped by McLaren coz he is languishing in the McLaren

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807870#Comment_119807870

What's your point about Ricciardo? He beat Vettel and turned out to go downhill? It can happen to drivers. It certainly happened to Vettel.

You said Vettel wastes his best years at Ferrari and AM. But he went downhill rapidly from mid 2018 and never recovered. He didn't waste his best years at Ferrari and AM Because he wasn't near his best at either team.

Cool_CM

If anybody held off getting the Lego Technic McLaren, it's down to €139 in Smyths at the moment (€200 on the Lego site). There's an extra tenner off too until Tuesday because they have a lego sale on:

https://www.smythstoys.com/ie/en-ie/toys/lego-and-bricks/lego-technic/lego-42141-technic-mclaren-formula-1-2022-race-car-model-set-for-adults/p/204041

Jordan 199

Lego Technic is brilliant.

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808849#Comment_119808849

Thanks very much… that’s gone right into the young fellas stocking 👍🏼

blade1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809027#Comment_119809027

We believe ya 🤪

PsychoPete

There's up 50% off on the F1 store if anyone is after some merch. Seems to only 33% on the 2022 merchandise still a nice saving

ctrl-alt-delete

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809332#Comment_119809332

I use that one too, I always say the young lad will be delighted with that as I pay for lego.

What I mean is the young lad in me.

Munstersrebel

Dude believe what you believe

Danny ric had a few decent seasons and then was upstaged left and well now he is bowing out. Simples

Seb lost his confidence due to the nonsense in Ferrari look at Leclerc...

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809641#Comment_119809641

Yeah. Both drivers were once very good then they lost it and aren't good anymore. They're both leaving the sport next year, which adds to the symmetry

BikeRacer

Off topic, but this is Ferraris WEC car for next year. Wow.

https://twitter.com/FerrariHypercar/status/1586452110136250373

NinjaTruncs

https://racingnews365.com/verstappen-boycotting-sky-sports-in-mexico

Interesting if true, I wonder will Horner be less accomodating to Sky if Max keeps up a boycott.

I thought it was a bit much from Ted when he said it at the time. But my thinking is that he was trying to build on the drama of Brad Pitt being about, but perhaps it was his true feelings.

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119811228#Comment_119811228

He done an interview yesterday with Sky after quali so it strikes me as odd if he’s boycotting now because of something said a week ago?!?

NinjaTruncs

I guess more clickbait so, I didn't see much of qualifying yesterday.

Hijpo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119811244#Comment_119811244

Did he do it with a sky reporter or did sky just air it?

-ah the post quali with culthard

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119811517#Comment_119811517

And in the media pen also, with a Sky mic in front of him.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119811661#Comment_119811661

He's probably contractually obligated for that. I'm guessing it's the likes of the review of the pole lap, chatting on pitlane or on grid, things like that.

You'd kind of hope that sky would give it a rest, at least one of them must have mentioned Abu Dhabi nearly every race...