UK Supreme Court: No to gender-neutral passports

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328923#Comment_118328923

But that's precisely the issue.

Almost everyone who "identifies" as "non-binary" is either genetically XX or XY; those irritating, immutable characteristics.

Non-binary has become the social code for "non-masculine / non-feminine" from a social construction perspective. But the vast majority of each of these people is either genetically XX or XY. By definition, objectivity doesn't care about one's opinion on the matter.

That's why it matters. Because without objectivity, we undermine the scientific method and the way we live in society.

There has to be a standard of evidence that we adhere to, otherwise, if thrown to the four winds, society ends up as a meaningless blizzard of subjectivity.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328594#Comment_118328594

People/governments have been identifying with "subjective opinion" for centuries, that's why people of different faith are allowed to preach from whatever "holy" book they wish to believe in.

If someone says Jesus was real then that doesn't affect you, Claim Allah is real? No affect on you. Want to identify as a horse? Still no affect on you.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328934#Comment_118328934

Yeah but I don't care. At least you have used the word "almost". My point was to the absolute statement of the other poster and I made it clear (or at least I thought that I did) that I was referring to only physical manifestations. I'm not getting involved in any discussion about anything that is not a physical manifestation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328941#Comment_118328941

If you're suggesting that non-binary philosophy is in the same category of religion, I agree with you.

And just like religion, I don't want individual religious beliefs to dictate the reality and political policy of the rest of society.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328945#Comment_118328945

Someone identifying as a Catholic, Muslim, Hindu etc does not impact on your life but is acceptable to you non the less.

Someone identifying as Male, Female, Horse, inanimate carbon rod etc also does not have any impact on your life whatsoever but is unacceptable to you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328961#Comment_118328961

The difference is the subject at stake - and how it affects law / society.

So for instance, I've no issue whatsoever in personal religious belief - as you say, Catholic or Muslim or Hindu - it doesn't bother me at all. But if there was a manifest movement where any of these minority groups forced me to adhere to their ways / interpretation of life, then yes, I'd have an issue.

Similarly, I've no issue if someone wants to identify as agender, astralgender, and the infinity number of other genders that could conceivably be created. But I do have an issue if they force me to believe that there are more than 2 sexes, and that if I don't believe that biological reality, then there's something disordered about my thinking. There, I draw a line.

I also draw a line if they want the rest of society / government / science to agree to their anti-biological perspectives.

I hope the distinction is clear.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328979#Comment_118328979

"But if there was a manifest movement where any of these minority groups forced me to adhere to their ways / interpretation of life, then yes, I'd have an issue."

You mustn't have lived in Ireland during the 70's, 80's and even the 90's so, you must have missed all of the minority groups who fought against SSM and abortion, all religiously motivated.

And again, no one is forcing you to believe anything, if someone tells you they identify as a suoernova or a duck billed platypus then just nod and walk away, it's thier belief not yours so how does it impact on your life?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328996#Comment_118328996

Jesus.

I've explained this thrice now.

I'm in favour of same-sex marriage, abortion, and trans- rights. I could not agree more with either of these three rights.

What I don't accept is that "non-binary" exists; that special passports need to be created to accommodate the "agendered" in society, and so on.

And again, it's not just my view. Many prominent trans- women (look them up: Blaire White; Rose of Dawn; Debbie Hayton) agree with me and other LGBT people, too.

Furthermore, Olympic athletes who now identify as trans-, such as Caitlyn Jenner, agree with me. The ITV trans- contributor, India Willoughby, agrees with me.

This isn't a "binary" issue.

You have LGBT people; you have trans- people; and you have non-LGBT people agreeing on the same front.

There's nothing surprising about this, either.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329006#Comment_118329006

Protest about it all you like but the fact is none of this impacts your life personally and never will.

No one is "forcing" you to do anything, no one is or will force you to believe anything that you don't want to believe so why stress about something that has zero impact on your life now or ever?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329014#Comment_118329014

The state is accepting the logic, and from it follows many consequences.

That's the problem.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329017#Comment_118329017

"God" is mentioned in the Irish constitution therefore the state is accepting the logic that "god" exists,, does this impact your life on a day to day basis?

What "consequences" do you forsee in the future that scares you so much?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329030#Comment_118329030

What matters is the question: "Is this right?"; or, "Does this conform to the expected standards of evidence?".

Let me reframe the question: do you think it's acceptable for an Irish passport to have the words "Astralgender" listed on the document?

I'm against "God" in the constitution as I am against "non-binary" appearing there; both are religious ideas, bereft of evidence; and which have no part to play in Irish society at large.

You can believe whatever you want - religious or social. Just don't force the rest of us to believe it. It's really not a difficult thing to follow.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329037#Comment_118329037

How would a person's passport having the word Astralgender on it impact your life? You're the one who has claimed this will impact you personally so I'm asking how? How does this affect your day to day life?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329042#Comment_118329042

Objectivity and science matters, that's why.

What we call ourselves in our spare time is another issue, and people can do as they wish and I respect that.

But biological sex exists. We can dispense with that reality with abandon if we wish. But we cannot pretend there aren't consequences to throw biology and evidence out with the proverbial bathwater.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329052#Comment_118329052

"Objectivity and science matters, that's why"

There is no scientific evidence that a god exists yet you are asked on the census to choose a religion. You can choose any or no religion and it wouldn't impact my life in any way.

If some chooses a gender, or no gender, or a flaming comet as thier preference then that also has no impact on my or your life in any way.

You're getting bent out of shape over something that doesn't concern you nor affects you.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329042#Comment_118329042

Taxes. Have a read of paragraph 13 of the judgment below and you’ll see that it would cost around £2m to introduce and administer the scheme. Is there somewhere else that £2m of taxpayer’s money would be better off spent on the needs of the many and not the few?

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2020-0081-judgment.pdf

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329067#Comment_118329067

2M over how long? It's not like they would suddenly have to reissue thousands of new passports it can be changed as people renew and if you choose to renew a passport there is a cost incurred. I've seen more money wasted on less, 2M is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328302#Comment_118328302

Nigel Farage's press secretary is posting about the importance of science and objectivity...

Parodic.

Danzy

Surprising and welcome judgement.

No pasaran.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329091#Comment_118329091

No pasaran

Wrong side.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329076#Comment_118329076

Doesn’t say, but £2m would fund 60 nurses for a year. You’re right in that it may not be a huge amount of money in the greater scheme of things, but spent correctly, it could make a huge difference in the lives of those who depend on the NHS/HSE.

So there’s your choice: 60 nurses because they are badly needed or an X on a passport.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329103#Comment_118329103

You're basing that as 2M in one year, whereas it's more likely 2M over 10 years as people renew passports or get thier first one. Personally I would have no problem if they were charged extra for thier passport, X amount for a standard passport or an extra £20 for ythe amended one to cover the costs.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329097#Comment_118329097

This time your side lose.

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328834#Comment_118328834

I believe intersex people are considered a subset of one of the two sexes, but I understand what you are getting at.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328792#Comment_118328792

You absolutely do not support trans rights. There are dozens and dozens of posts on this site where you oppose them.

Annasopra

No surprise here at people jumping with delight on this. Its quite unhealthy the way some people are so negatively obsessed with gender non conforming people being a threat to the world.

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329463#Comment_118329463

Nope, the threat comes from TRA's and their complete abondonment of scientific objectivity and reason. For example, the idea that trans-women are literal women, or people can change sex. Said people tend to proclaim they support 'gender non-conforming people' as you phrase it. Issues such as this should be based in sex, a term, as the court pointed out, has always been used interchangeably with gender.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329463#Comment_118329463

Maybe people are just tired of the constant whinging of some, who think the world needs to change to accommodate their specific needs.

If you agree to one change you open up the floodgates to whole hordes of people who have their own special requirements. Hardly surprising that no court wants to deal with that influx of work.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329435#Comment_118329435

He's all prepped to respond to this one with "As a homosexual".... Funnily, he didn't address my post which pointed out that more than 2 genders isn't a new phenomena cause you know, social constructs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328941#Comment_118328941

Want to identify as a woman and her legal backing, effect on you. Effect on society.

(also preferring one religion over another has an effect on society, as you should know).