UK Supreme Court: No to gender-neutral passports

Gregor Samsa

Why does gender or sex have to be on a passport at all? How does it relate to what a passport is intended for: Official personal identity for the purposes of gaining legal access to a country. All that matters on a passport is what country has issued it, that it's valid, and it identifies a unique individual and that the individual represented on it can be reasonably identified as the person holding it.

How does defining the person as male, female or other aid this in any way? A person has a passport. The photo on it accurately looks like them. The individual represented on it is not on any security alert list. The passport is confirmed as genuine and valid. How does identifying that individual's allosome aid the process in any way? We don't demand race, height, shoe size, number of teeth or any other number of vaguely identifying characteristics. If a more robust confirmation of identity was required, one would think that fingerprints or iris scan data or some-such would be more helpful than sex. The only thing that's in any way gender based that I've encountered when entering any country is in some places at the security check, men get patted down by men, women by women. But they don't check your passport first, they just do it based on physical appearance.

It's gone now, but there use to be a spot on the passport where you could write your blood-type in yourself. No one checked the validity of what you put in. It didn't matter, because any hospital is going to do a test anyway before giving you a blood transfusion, so they're not going to even check your passport. Why not have a spot where people can fill in whatever gender they want if they feel like it's important to them? It wouldn't cost anything to run, gives everyone the choice to put whatever they want, or nothing, down.

Chips Lovell

Fundamentally, a passport is not meant to be some sort of affirmation/confirmation of your gender or biological sex. It's an identity document that's used primarily for crossing international borders. Does changing the gender info carried on a passport undermine that purpose?

Just Some Young Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329757#Comment_118329757

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329783#Comment_118329783

I don't think the argument in question is solely based around just what is on the passport documentation. The discussion and reasoning extends beyond that. If the UK was to recognise gender X or non-binary genders in any way on a passport then they would be setting a precedent that implies it should be recognised on other legal documents or in other situations. So, in a way they are voting against this so that they don't concede legal precedent. The passport could be replaced with a license, age card, birth cert etc.

Disclaimer: I am neither in favour, nor against, the idea of non-binary recognition. I don't want any attacks on what someone believes to be my personal views/beliefs lol

seamus

The inclusion of gender on the passport actually seems somewhat unhelpful, since you're not really providing for a particularly useful identification metric. Like hair colour or eye colour, these are things that can be changed and thus only serve to create confusion at a border when someone's passport says "female", but visually the individual looks male to the immigration official. What are they going to do? Insist they strip down to show their genitals? Take a DNA test?

Can anyone give a reason why gender should appear on the passport at all?

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328333#Comment_118328333

You've touched on a very salient point here.

(although obviously coming at the topic from a somewhat biased perspective - not that I'm criticizing you here, we can all have ingrained biases)

We really don't know what science is going to discover in the future. You are correct to suggest that the science of the future, could ultimately validate the views of yourself and others who consider gender to be a more fluid construct.

However, equally, the science could potentially go the other way as well. For all we know, science could prove gender identity or certain sexual orientations, as being heavily influenced by mental illness. How do we really know?

I don't have a dog in the fight, so to speak.

I would like everyone in society to be accepted for who and what they are, and live the happiest life possible. However, by the same token, I don't think we should be altering large tranches of our laws just so we can appease certain people and portray our society in a certain light. That's not a particularly robust criteria for altering important laws and documents etc.

If the science becomes more concrete in the future on these issues, then I would be open to changing my view on this. But quite a lot if this stuff is inconclusive right now. And wishing something to be true, is not a very scientific stance to take. Our laws should be grounded in logic and facts, not the whims or feelings of certain groups in society. That sort of stuff sets a dangerous precedent (imho).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329435#Comment_118329435

I oppose gender self-identification and the attempt to eliminate biological sex from reality, not trans- rights. Big difference! It's simply untrue that I do not support trans- rights; that's just a slur that anyone gender critical gets accused of these days.

It appears to me that you don't have any problem with male or female appearing on passports, but it's that the word Gender is used to describe them rather than Sex. We all know that Gender has been historically used to describe biological sex.

So, if on passports the word Gender is changed to Sex - with only 2 options, male and female - would you be happy with that?

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328915#Comment_118328915

What happens when someone who identifies as female is tested, and is found to be XY? Nothing happens. The same would be true of a non-binary person.

If the UK one can currently get legal recognition of a gender change. There's a process you can go though to change the designation on your passport from male to female, or visa versa.

So it's already legally established in the UK legislation and practice that your officially identified sex isn't necessarily related to your genetic makeup. So why would extending the recognition to non-binary people make any difference? In UK law (in regards to legal identity), XX and XY don't mean anything, so why would it be an issue to have an identity that isn't one of the two?

This ruling is simply about the fact that the legislation as it stands only allows for two genders. That's simply a procedural and legal position, based on how the legislation is worded - not a constitutional affirmation of the sanctity of binary identity.

It's highlighting an absurd legal position: "only binary identification is possible, but you can freely choose either one". While that may be the current legal position, it makes no practical sense.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329954#Comment_118329954

The word "Sex" is already used on UK passports, not "Gender".

However this isn't a ruling about definitions of terminology at all. One of the judges said:

'On the contrary, legislation across the statute book assumes that all individuals can be categorised as belonging to one of two sexes or genders, terms which have been used interchangeably.'

The issue is simply about the allowed entries in the designation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330499#Comment_118330499

Then I don't see what the issue is?

Nobody is a third sex.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331448#Comment_118331448

The issue is that the law fully recognises that sexual identity isn't based on chromosomal characteristics at all.

And yet, the only options given are identities based on chromosomal characteristics.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331549#Comment_118331549

The problem remains the same.

Almost all of the population is certifiably male or female sexed.

And yes it's true that a small number of people have chromosomal differences, but even most of these choose to be seen as either male or female sexed. Those even tinier minority that do not should be considered differently / have a different passport (maybe this already exists, I don't know?). Those who are m-to-f / f-to-m trans- are also either male or female sexed.

But for everyone else, the passport should remain as it is today.

The one thing we can say for certain is that subjective gender identities (such as astralgender and agender) have nothing whatsoever to do with any of the above.

Good decision 👏

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331581#Comment_118331581

I'm not talking about people having chromosomal differences or issues.

Currently, under UK legislation, someone with bog standard XY chromosomes can legally identify as female. They can get a Gender Recognition Certificate to show this, and get a birth certificate, passport, etc. issued with this designation.

This means that legally, the designation of "male" or "female" is not tied to the chromosomes the person has.

So even binary gender is subjective, in the eyes of the law. It's not objectively based on biology. It's subjectively based on self-identity. This isn't my opinion - this is factual statement about the legal state of affairs.

So for some reason, the legality of subjective identity allows only for choices that have been fundamentally rejected by the very concept of subjective identity. It's an absurd position.

It's just a legal anomaly - the legislation will catch up eventually. This ruling has just highlighted it. What's strange is that some people who object to self-designation think it's a victory for their point of view, where it isn't at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331690#Comment_118331690

Well, there are several issues there.

But it still boils down to the same issue: that whatever way you decide to classify male and female, you're still left with male or female. There are no other sexes under consideration.

And if there are no other sexes under consideration, then any talk of non-binary - which isn't a sex - has got nothing to do with this passport question which, admittedly, remains unresolved for the reasons you've laid out.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329954#Comment_118329954

There is no slur. You do not in any way, shape or form support trans rights. Just because your views are echoed by some transphobic trans people doesnt mean you are a trans saviour who supports trans rights. You really don't.

Firstly you believe that legally trans people should not be able to live in their preferred gender. This is definitely not supporting trans rights. It is opposing trans peoples rights to self determination. It is opposing trans peoples rights to enjoy the freedom to live and publicly express their gender identity, gender expression and sex characteristics without fear of intolerance, discrimination or persecution on those grounds.

Secondly opposing self ID is very much opposing trans rights. It is opposing a trans persons right to self determination and to be legally recognised in their preferred gender. The European Court of Human Rights has held that the notion of personal autonomy is a key principle underlying Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights and includes a right to self-determination applicable to sexual orientation and gender identity. It has described gender identity as “one of the most intimate areas of a person’s private life” and as “one of the most basic essentials of self-determination.” Your opposition to self ID is very much opposing trans rights. In countries that do not have Self ID they may have legal requirements for such things as diagnosis of a mental disorder, medical treatment, invasive surgery, assessment of time lived in the new gender identity, and being single or divorced. All of these requirements violate many forms of human rights including a person’s dignity, physical integrity, right to form a family, and right to be free from degrading and inhumane treatment. Again opposing all of this is opposing trans rights.

Nah. There is no slur in my post at all. You oppose trans rights and you cant pretend otherwise.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333453#Comment_118333453

You didn't even answer the question I posed. You've instead replied with slabs of misinformation about what I believe.

Just to re-emphasize my point: if an individual self-identifies as "Astralgender" or "Agender" - you would prefer that to appear on UK passports?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333464#Comment_118333464

You don't support trans rights and you cannot claim you do. There is no misinformation in my post.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333592#Comment_118333592

Can you offer your answer to the question?

Nobody knows what your position is; all we are hearing is constant criticism of other people.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333601#Comment_118333601

I'm responding to your assertion that you support trans rights. Its completely and utterly untrue. I have explained why.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333619#Comment_118333619

False. But we can agree to disagree on that.

This is about gender-neutral passports. If someone self-identifies as Astralgender, an affinity to the sky and stars etc., should that appear as their: "Sex: _________", on passports?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333646#Comment_118333646

Annasopra is spot on about you. Your posting history makes it pretty clear... Leaping to the defense of all the terfs and often bringing them up makes it pretty clear.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333464#Comment_118333464

How would this impact you personally? What in your day to day life would change if this were to happen?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333959#Comment_118333959

The answer to this question is the significance.

This is about gender-neutral passports. If someone self-identifies as Astralgender, an affinity to the sky and stars etc., should that appear as their: "Sex: _________", on passports?

Liberty_Bear

Lest we forget that this case can be brought to the European Court of Human Rights irrespective of Brexit. The UK is still party to the treaty that set it up. Were a case to be brought it, my understanding is a finding, while not binding on the UK would perhaps shame the UK into bringing it into law. With the repeal of the Human Rights Act , the UK even with separation of state and the judiciary is still quite conservative in thinking. I do note that some have proclaimed that this is being foisted upon us. Thats not an accurate portrait at all. This gives people the option of having a gender netural passport, this does nothing to imply there is an onus on anyone else to think nor behave differently. There is also science underpinning non binary too.

I refer you to an excellent article in Scientific American which detailed the matter

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

The genes behind both expression of male and female biological sex can change in the life of the person. This influences brain patterns and thinking as well as physical characteristics. So at the end of the day the science backs up non binary people as to who they are.

:)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334015#Comment_118334015

How many biological sexes are there?

Is Astralgender a biological sex?

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334015#Comment_118334015

Firstly, SciAm put in a disclaimer at the bottom of the “excellent article” distancing itself from the content. Second, the “excellent article” was calmly dismantled in the video below about a year later. It’s only 10 minutes. Worth watching!

https://youtu.be/OKdhsDfSmiE

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333997#Comment_118333997

So it would not impact on your day to day life In any way shape or form even though you earlier said it would?

As I said before religious people identify as Muslim, Catholic, Hindu etc and it doesn't have any bearing on you so why would someone identifying as a distant star impact you?

The answer is categorically that it doesn't, you just don't want people to be different to you, for someone who shouts so loudly about "cancel culture" you sure do like to try cancel other people and thier beliefs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334198#Comment_118334198

This is the best and clearest explanation of the question I have yet come across, and I'm surprised that I haven't come across it sooner.

Fabulous video, and - by extension - it demonstrates much of what's wrong with the question of sex, gender, and passports.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333646#Comment_118333646

No. I have said nothing false. You claimed you support trans rights. Its completely untrue.

https://apnews.com/article/us-passports-x-gender-designation-2c29e18fc6566d549b9a06fda0857602

Meanwhile, mere weeks ago in the US of A...

DENVER (AP) — "The United States has issued its first passport with an “X” gender designation, marking a milestone in the recognition of the rights of people who do not identify as male or female, and expects to be able to offer the option more broadly next year, the State Department said Wednesday."