UK Supreme Court: No to gender-neutral passports

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334256#Comment_118334256

If you want to read even more debunking of the “excellent article”, here is a link to a tweet storm that just rips it apart. I’m surprised SciAm still have it up given how incorrect it is:

https://twitter.com/lascapigliata8/status/1273387198042292226/photo/1

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334015#Comment_118334015

Complete and utter horse shite. This is exactly what I meant when I said TRA's are opposed to objective science. First of all it's a blog post, and not a scientific article, and secondly you obviously missed the disclaimer:

'The views expressed are those of the author(s) and are not necessarily those of Scientific American.'

That's there for a reason. Sex is binary. There are 2 sexes. It's an open and shut case.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334308#Comment_118334308

It's also why, for five times now, that my question of - "Should a person who identifies as astralgender, an affinity to the stars and the universe, be present under, Sex: ____________ on the person's passport?" - has gone ignored.

It's not a coincidence; the other side know perfectly well of the implications of their answer. Instead of answering the question, they'd rather replace that difficult problem with the very easy solution of just attacking me.

How convenient.

There's a reason for that; it's because there isn't a Sex called astralgender. There isn't a third, a fourth, or a fifth sex.

Even the astralgender identifying person has a sex - and it's this sex that we present on passports.

Nothing else. Nothing discriminatory; and certainly nothing anti-scientific.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334198#Comment_118334198

Many thanks for that link. I am watching it...Some points to address

The Karyotyping looked at the XX and XY chromosome - within that it found approx 97.5 % conformed to the standard XX/XY chromosome however that leaves approx 2.5% who are not, in the grand scheme of things that is still a sizeable amount of the population on the grand scale.

Regarding the addition of endocronological data - the study is a tad outdated he has , from 2011 - the below refers

"The early impact of androgens on brain development can be modified or reinforced later in life by a variety of endogenous and exogenous factors, but it is hard to revert (Hines, 2011; Goldstein et al, 2019). An irreversible set of events occurring during embryonic life may be at the basis of gender dysphoria, a partial or complete dissociation between the gender self‐representation of an individual and his/her genetic and gonadal sex (Wanta & Unger, 2017). Those who identify as transgender may therefore choose to affirm their gender by hormonal or surgical intervention to alter their biological sex. However, it is important not only for gender identity clinics to assist with psychological and social transition, along with surgical and hormonal changes to physical characteristics."

Androgens are the hormones that determine our biological sex from DHT in the womb to testosterone in men. What the article effectively says is that there is a certain degree of plasticity within those whom identify as another gender. The video goes on to take a large portion of its times to deal with the SRY gene which doesnt negate the environmental or hormonal factors.

In the video at the six minute mark there is an acknowledgement that gay men may have some brain structures similar to that of straight women.

There was a video debunking the Paradox Insitute btw

https://www.reddit.com/r/IFailedBiology/comments/ggb9ou/xanderhal_debunking_the_paradox_institutes/

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-neuro-061010-113654

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334386#Comment_118334386

"

Should a person who identifies as astralgender, an affinity to the stars and the universe, be present under, Sex: ____________ on the person's passport?"

Yes, why would I object? It doesn't affect me in any way, the same way it doesn't affect you so what's it to you if that or "giant moon pig" appears on someone's private document? Again, how does this impact YOUR life? You demand answers yet refuse to answer that one simple question.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334443#Comment_118334443

It's well within your right to believe that astralgender is a biological sex.

All I'll say in conclusion is that I rest my case.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334046#Comment_118334046

Again there is no bearing on your existence . I fail to see what your point is

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334449#Comment_118334449

To demonstrate Astralgender exists, one would have to point to a body of evidence

What evidence have you got :)

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334449#Comment_118334449

Hold on

You just said

"It's also why, for five times now, that my question of "

You demanded an answer and you got it, so now why won't you answer my question? Why do you do this one every thread?

How does this impact YOUR life? Why won't you answer this?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334462#Comment_118334462

How many biological sexes are there?

Is Astralgender a biological sex?

Liberty_Bear

Funny thing is

Gay bloke myself, I remember having to justify my existence twenty years ago to someone...can empathise fully as to why my personal choices appear to be an object of fascination..what gives

Ten of Swords

@85603 do not post in this thread again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334551#Comment_118334551

I'm gay myself.

You are on one side of the argument and I'm on the other. That's fine, and that's healthy - and that's part of a democracy.

In fact, some might say that being gay has nothing to do with this particular question - because being trans- is not a question of sexuality at all.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334485#Comment_118334485

Biological sex is not necessary displayed on a UK passport, so the question of how many biological sexes there are, or whether any particular term is one or not, is entirely moot.

The sex displayed on a UK passport can be self-identified, and does not have to confirm to the individual’s biological sex.

Ten of Swords

@eskimohunt drop the astralgender angle, this is your standard go-to in these threads but it's not relevant here and dragging the thread off topic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334640#Comment_118334640

But you are bringing up a legal definition versus a biological definition.

According to your personal definition, how many sexes are there?

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334654#Comment_118334654

This ruling, this thread, this issue is entirely a legal issue. Mine or anyone else’s opinions on biology are irrelevant.

It’s a simple statement of fact that UK law allows legal self-identification of gender independent of biology.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334632#Comment_118334632

Yet 20 years ago we had people tell us that we are leading a lifestyle, that same scenario is raising its head again for trans people. Are we forgetting where we came from? Solidarity ?

Vestiapx

Let people be what ever they wanna be.

Dont let people cheat

If people are allowed to be themselves and to have integrity they grow In to good people

I'm a 40 something man that came from a rought area and learned a but of boxing a bit of judo and a bit of kempo along the way.

As a man I'm like 80 per cent as in I can beat 1 in 5 lads that have a go.

As a woman Im elite

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334654#Comment_118334654

I have to ask again, how does this impact YOUR life as you claimed earlier in the thread?

joseywhales

You know when Facebook started out and I created my account, I decided to be female, mostly because I thought social media was a joke. But it turned out to be great, over the years, I've had targeted advertising clearly meant for females, I loved that their "clever algorithms" were fundamentally ruined by this. So now I say pick and choose whatever genders you like, what does it matter really? I am still female on that platform if anyone uses it anymore.

Although when it comes to scientifically identifying someone using chromosomes is perfectly valid, along with eye colour, hair colour, height, whatever. It's none of my business what criteria they want to use to identify a unique person.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334752#Comment_118334752

I would contend that state-sponsored lying on official documents, is important to the whole of society.

It has potential knock-on effects for everyone.

What next? You don't wish to identify as a human being, or perhaps not even a mammal? Maybe you have a preference for living as an invertebrate or a reptile? It may seem like I'm joking here, or engaging in mockery - but I'm really not. When you are being given the green light to deny facts/science in favor of people's feelings, you could argue that you've now crossed a line in the sand. Why stop at gender/sex? Why stop anywhere?

And this tired worn out argument of "why do you care?" or "How does it affect you?" is getting fairly old and cliched at this point. The classic tactic used, when people know there is a controversial topic and they want to passive aggressively brow beat and bully people into not giving their opinion. It's a pretty low-ball unintelligent approach tbh.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334434#Comment_118334434

...and I'm sure if we search for long enough, we'll find some other channel debunking Xanderhal, and it just goes on and on. The point that was made by the Supreme Court (at paragraph 21) is that recording the sex of a person on a passport is vital for the listed reasons (@seamus I think this answers your earlier question) and they simply didn't buy the argument that having X as an option under "Sex" outweighed the public policy considerations listed at paragraph 53.

The most important thing of all here is that me and you are having a civil conversation about a disputed topic. You're not flinging names at me and I'm not flinging names at you, and that results in mutual respect even if we disagree. It keeps the conversation moving, and that's absolutely vital if we're to understand each other AND if we're willing to move from our respective positions should one of us prove the other is wrong in some way. I'm far more likely to listen to you and take you seriously because of your approach, so kudos!

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118335374#Comment_118335374

"When you are being given the green light to deny facts/science in favor of people's feelings, you could argue that you've now crossed a line in the sand."

But we do this every day, People of faith go to churches/mosque/synagogue or whatever and pray to a "god" even though there is no scientific proof of any "gods" existence.

We don't deny them thier beliefs, should we tell them all to stop? Tell them not to be silly and that there is no magic sky fairy watching over them? I mean why not? Why should we "deny facts/science in favor of people's feelings" right?

But we don't do that, We allow them thier beliefs because that's thier belief and its nothing to do with anyone else, I would say a person choosing to identify as invertebrate or a reptile is a lot less dangerous to society than some of the religious zealots out there.

So again I ask, and yes you can claim its "old and cliched at this point" but How does it impact yours or my life if someone chooses to put an X on thier personal private document?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118335912#Comment_118335912

The religion analogy is perfect, but not in the way that you seem to think.

As with religion, the State should be secular - and not favour one form of belief over another; that this is a personal matter and people are fine to believe whatever they like in the comfort of their own homes.

The same is true of gender self-identification. The State should not favour one form of belief over another, but let people believe whatever they want to believe about their identity. The State should remain objective and not elevate subjective belief over objective biological fact.

That's why it's so important that passports do not bend to the pressure of allowing subjective belief to override biological 'Sex' - and it's 'Sex' that's listed on passports, not 'Gender'.

Gregor Samsa

That's why it's so important that passports do not bend to the pressure of allowing subjective belief to override biological 'Sex' - and it's 'Sex' that's listed on passports, not 'Gender'.

The heading on that section of the passport is irrelevant. One of the judges in the ruling even said the two terms were interchangeable. It's an academic argument, but not one that has any application in the real world, as language is fluid. It's the reason that even you use the qualifier "biological sex" in many of your posts.

And in any case, that section of the passport does not record biological sex, so that argument is totally irrelevant. The right to have your subjectively-defined declared sex on your passport is already enshrined in UK law and practice. The case and ruling was simply about what terms could be used in one's subjective declaration.

Now, the question is: what happens next. Inaction, most likely in the short term. But longer term.

Which do you think is the most likely scenario? Objectively, I mean - not what you'd like to happen in an ideal world. What will happen in this world?

A) The current legal practice of subjective self-identification of sex, limited to the options of male and female, is rolled back and only biological sex is recorded.

or

B) The current legal practice of subjective self-identification of sex is expanded to include a gender neutral option.

To me it's obvious that B is most likely.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336092#Comment_118336092

On the census (an official government document) they ask your religion, you can put any of the listed religions or none, you can even put in a made up religion (Jedi or pastafarian) and its recorded without the world caving in.

Someone claiming (on an official government document) to be a Jedi does not impact your life in any way so why would someone having an X on thier passport impact your life as you previously claimed? I've asked you this question several times now but you continue to dodge answering it, whys that?

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118335912#Comment_118335912

You are attempting to conflate two different things here.

We don't have official state-sponsored documents acknowledging the existence of someone's "god". We simply acknowledge, as a society, people's right to believe in their "sky fairies" (your words).

I'm not suggesting we should prevent anyone from believing what they want to believe, or living how they want to live.

But if your particular gender identity cannot currently be proven factual through science, then I don't see how an official government document can acknowledge this. Your date of birth is not a record of which date YOU choose, it's a factual record of the actual date you were born on.

If you want to go around identifying as 20 year old, when you're actually a 65 year pensioner, knock yourself out. Enjoy your life as a 20 year old. But this doesn't mean your government should grant you the right to lie about your age on an official document.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336294#Comment_118336294

(a) won't happen, because it needs to account for trans men and trans women.

But (b) shouldn't happen. There is no reason to include self-identification on passports for anything other than male or female, because those are the only two "real world" sexes/genders that objectively exist. As you say, sex/gender is considered the same from a legal standpoint, but what do we do about those who claim to be sexless or without gender? Where does this stuff stop? It's a very slippery slope that will spread into every other area of society where these differences between people has a real-world impact.

This isn't just my view; it's also the view of actual prominent trans women - such as Blaire White, Rose of Dawn, and Debbie Hayton.

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334434#Comment_118334434

None of that means that sex isn't binary, or sex is a spectrum.