UK Supreme Court: No to gender-neutral passports

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336393#Comment_118336393

"We don't have official state-sponsored documents acknowledging the existence of someone's "god".

Actually you do

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland

"The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion."

https://talkabout.iclrs.org/2020/10/31/god-in-the-irish-constitution/

"In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,

We, the people of Éire,

Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial…"

"Later, in Article 6, the Constitution clarifies and restates this hierarchy: “All powers of government, legislative, executive, and judicial, derive, under God, from the people.” The people are in charge but subject to God. The Constitution also mentions “Almighty God” in oaths to be sworn by the President, the Council of State, and the judiciary.

Article 44, on religion, begins: “The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.”

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334434#Comment_118334434

"The Karyotyping looked at the XX and XY chromosome - within that it found approx 97.5 % conformed to the standard XX/XY chromosome however that leaves approx 2.5% who are not, in the grand scheme of things that is still a sizeable amount of the population on the grand scale."

Most people with non-normal sex chromosomes, ie. other than XX or XY, are still predictably genetically male or female.

That's because it's the presence or absence of a Y chromosome, and more specifically the SRY gene, which determines sex. So, for example, people with Klinefelter syndrome (XXY) are male, and people with Turner syndrome (X) are female. Those syndromes are not evidence of a sex spectrum.

The actual number of exceptions to this classification is much smaller. Less than 0.2% afaik. So, sex is genetically predictable for over 99.8% of the population.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336092#Comment_118336092

The state defend the right to practise your religion under article 44 of the constitution, hardly staying out of it!

nolivesmatter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328333#Comment_118328333

“We might not have the science behind it yet, but we will.”

That’s the key issue for most people. When/if you get that science behind it a lot more people will be in agreement with you.

Gregor Samsa

@eskimohunt : There is no reason to include self-identification on passports for anything other than male or female, because those are the only two "real world" sexes/genders that objectively exist.

But how is a person with XY chromosomes legally self identifying on their passport as a female any more objectively true than someone identifying as gender neutral?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336519#Comment_118336519

And that's exactly where the State should be - pretty much out of it, allowing people to believe what they want to believe.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336566#Comment_118336566

That's where we draw the line.

For instance: we know that trans men / trans women undergo an immense amount of surgery / life-changing treatments etc. to live as the opposite sex. That should be acknowledged on passports simply because trans people exist and it doesn't harm the male/female binary to include M or F on passports.

With self-identification, that's exactly the other way around: where genders are listed which are not verifiable in reality (everything other than male or female) are said to exist as an identification. Male and female are at least realities that exist; agender or neutrois etc. are not verifiable; they're more of a personality description than anything to do with sex.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336683#Comment_118336683

There’s no requirement for surgery or life changing treatment for trans person to legally identify as either male or female in the UK.

the requirements are:

1. Being over 18
2. Being diagnosed with gender dysphoria.
3. Living as your acquired gender for at least 2 years.
4. Intending to do so for the rest of your life.

Apart from the age limit, the remaining 3 criteria are ultimately based on self-identification already.

So I ask again, how is a person with XY chromosomes legally self identifying on their passport as a female any more objectively true than someone identifying as gender neutral?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336776#Comment_118336776

It's a question of boundaries.

So based on your logic, you could also ask the question: what's stopping someone from self-identifying as a rhododendron plant?

You see the issue?

We have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise we're opening a Pandora's box.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336619#Comment_118336619

"allowing people to believe what they want to believe"

Why can't you do that?

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336796#Comment_118336796

If someone chose to identify as a rhododendron plant, how would it impact your life? Again you made the claim it would but refuse to explain how.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336796#Comment_118336796

But we’re not talking about identifying as a rhododendron plant. We’re talking about gender neutrality.

Someone asks you if you want tea or coffee. Your reply that you don’t want anything. They refuse to acknowledge your response, and insist that you declare whether you want tea or coffee. But furthermore they say that if you want you can ask for tea and get coffee, or ask for coffee and get tea. But you simply cannot get nothing, and the reason is that they’re afraid that someone will ask for a rhododendron plant.

Would that not be an absurd situation to be in?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336619#Comment_118336619

putting it into the constitution of the country is hardly 'pretty much out of it'

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336853#Comment_118336853

Things don't have to impact your life in order to have a reasoned, sensible opinion on a matter.

My opinion has no impact on your life, but you have an opinion on it nonetheless.

The principle is the same.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118337628#Comment_118337628

So you admit that when you said it would impact on your life that you were actually lying? Nice we could finally clear that up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118337676#Comment_118337676

Not at all.

There is a direct impact, which is negligible. And there's a long-term, societal impact of deconstructing everything we know to satisfy the demands of fringe, subjective, unfalsifiable beliefs.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118337877#Comment_118337877

What's the direct impact on your life? For someone who harps on about "cancel culture" on other threads you sure have no issue cancelling things that you don't approve of.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336462#Comment_118336462

…

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336853#Comment_118336853

It would if the State had to treat the person as a plant. I assume for instance that you can’t arrest, under existing laws, plants for murder; so if the state decided a person was a plant we couldn’t arrest him as a murderer. Of course we could then change the law to make plants persons but that would mean jailing trees that fall on cars, or leaves that cause train derailments. Which is in nobody’s interests.

Ten of Swords

Mod - Stop discussing other users and lets get back on topic please

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345186#Comment_118345186

Read that again. Really...Read it and take a while to think about it and If you really think it makes sense then ask me again and I'll answer.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345337#Comment_118345337

What I wrote makes absolute sense, if you believe that the state should recognise the right of people to be plants. I honestly don’t think you know what you are arguing about.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345877#Comment_118345877

The state recognises a person's right to identify as a Catholic, that person has the right to wear religious symbols, they have the right to go to a building and listen to others talk a out an invisible being, they themselves will talk to this invisible being.

They will make life decisions based on thier belief in this invisible being and can often be found reading books or posting about this invisible being on social media. I do r believe in any invisible beings holding sway over my life and therefore cannot understand why they would identify as being a follower of said invisible bring, tha said I still have no issue with them doing it because it doesn't impact t my life.

The same can be said for someone wanting to identify as a plant, let them at it, it doesn't impact you or I in any way.

nolivesmatter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118346006#Comment_118346006

Letting them at it would be one thing. But anyone wanting to be recognised legally as a something would be requiring others to participate in that. And you could argue that participating in a delusion that they are a plant may not be the right thing to do.

But this is a bad analogy anyway, as I don’t think you’d get anywhere near as many people who would support it as they would a gender neutral passport.

Edit: Just to add, I do understand the ‘live and let live’ point you seem to be coming from, and I agree with that for the most part. I just think the law should be based on the science evidence, whichever way it is or if it changes.

Ten of Swords

Mod - A large number of off topic posts have been removed for discussing posters (which there has ALREADY been a mod warning for) and for dragging the thread off topic

As this is becoming a recurring problem, people who persist with this can expect a threadban at a minimum, possibly a forum ban too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118346006#Comment_118346006

But we're talking about passports here and legal identification, not some generic interest in doing whatever you want to do in life.

No passport requires the user to identify their religion. You can change religion anyway, but you cannot change sex.

And ultimately, that's what the passport entry is about, the "Sex = ______________".

So, to this end, how many sexes do you believe there are?

Ultimately, this is the most relevant part of the question because this passport entry is about "Sex = __________", and nothing else.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118348627#Comment_118348627

Still waiting for you to answer my question, how (as you claimed earlier) does someone having an X on thier passport impact you personally?

Answer that question and then we can move on to your questions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118348682#Comment_118348682

Okay, it has zero impact on me personally.

Now, how many sexes (not 'genders') do you believe there are?

That's what the passport entry is about, and nothing besides.

Pussyhands

A rare reminder that the world isn't full of crazyness. Great news.

You wanna be an X or Y or whatever you wanna call yourself, call yourself that. Don't force anyone else to partake.

So many of the twitter brigade on about covid and "trust the science!"...well I'm trusting the science.

I think it would be better for a passport to reflect the Person carrying it.

So, if a passport said female/trans man, it would be preferable, for the people trying to identify others.

Personally, it doesn't affect anyone, in their own life, what anyone else has written in their passport.