UK Supreme Court: No to gender-neutral passports

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118353958#Comment_118353958

No need, you haven't been able to name one bad thing that has happened since several countries introduced gender neutral passports.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354001#Comment_118354001

You yourself argued before that sex-gender shouldn't even matter for passports.

If anything, you should be arguing against sex-gender entries on passports on those grounds alone.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118353949#Comment_118353949

Gender is a social construct rather than biological though. As a result more than two genders have and do get recognised in plenty of culturess. And I really don't see why it shouldn't be recognised. It literally has no impact on any of us.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354049#Comment_118354049

As I said before, what someone has on thier passport is neither mine nor your business. It doesn't impact either of our lives in any way so let them have what they want, it's worked fine in other countries and I'm sure it will work fine for both yours and mine when it eventually happens.

Dublinandy3

I was reading this thread and a question came to me, I didn't read all 7 pages though so if it was asked/answered apologies.

Forgetting the question for the moment if it should happen in Ireland or not. Those countries that do have gender neutral passports already, or similar, could it ever cause an issue turning up at a countries border when that country doesn't legally recognise the gender that shows on your passport, or if you wanted a visa and didn't have the right box to tick on the application so when they processed it didn't match.

Just thinking out loud here, does anyone know?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354070#Comment_118354070

But you're arguing the case, "Well, what's the harm?".

But what is the positive case for including gender neutral identities on passports? For instance, what advantage does it serve society at large to have identities such as neutrois and two-spirit person on passports? Does it serve a function?

Not a neutral case; but an actively positive case for including it. Making people feel better is not a positive case. I'm referring to societal and legal and objective benefit.

I've made the argument that the negative case against this inclusion is that it interprets biological sex as subjective gender identities; that it undermines the idea that law is undergirded by science and objectivity.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118353409#Comment_118353409

In the UK and Ireland it says sex but effectively already means gender though so you've long since lost the argument anyway. A person assigned female at birth can have male marked on his passport. Its been happening in the UK for nearly 20 years and Ireland for roughly 10 years. The world hasnt caved in.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354285#Comment_118354285

So, you want Sex changed to Gender on passports, I assume?

Because they're not interchangeable terms, no matter how arguments are "lost" on a legal level.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354316#Comment_118354316

I'm not overly bothered at all whether sex or gender is on a passport. Trans people already have their preferred gender identity marked in the sex category already so what I am saying is that you hopping up and down about it really is a waste of your time. The judge made the point that sex and gender are used interchangeably. He's not wrong there. They may not be interchangeable terms but they are often used interchangeably.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354366#Comment_118354366

How many sexes are there, in your opinion? I ask this because the current entry on passports is, "Sex = ______________".

I'm not asking what the law says, because the law can state anything - and law and truth do not always align. For example: the law could state that Sex is only for males, but that wouldn't make it right.

So, in your personal view, how many sexes are there?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354071#Comment_118354071

That's the only thing that came to my mind. This would close off a lot of the world to you.

I don't care if people want to get it. Let them. But a passport is just a passport. It is used primarily to travel. The details on it match my birth cert and it proves my nationality. I don't understand why some people want it to reflect more. It's been the most important document I own having not been in Europe for over ten years, and I cannot fathom the hassle and impossibility of so many things if I wasn't male or female on it.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118353459#Comment_118353459

Your given name has nothing to do with science, and your name on your passport doesn’t necessarily have to correspond to your name on other legal documents.

Also the sex or gender description on passports is certainly not based upon science, it’s based upon legal recognition of a persons identity. That was the whole reason for the campaign to have the Home Office recognise a third option on UK passports.

The reason for it’s refusal had nothing to do with science, and everything to do with how it would create an administrative headache for other Government departments -

Christie Elan-Cane said the application process breaches human rights laws by not allowing an "X" option.

But the court said applicants' gender was "a biographical detail which can be used to confirm their identity".

Lord Reed, president of the Supreme Court, said in the ruling that gender could be checked against birth, adoption or gender recognition certificates as part of confirming an applicant's identity.

"It is therefore the gender recognised for legal purposes and recorded in those documents which is relevant," he said.

He said Christie Elan-Cane's interest in having an "X" passport was outweighed by other considerations, including "maintaining a coherent approach across government".

"There is no legislation in the United Kingdom which recognises a non-gendered category of individuals," he said.

He said legislation "across the statute book" assumes all people can be categorised in two sexes or genders - "terms which have been used interchangeably".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-59667786

Your piss poor understanding of law is only matched by your piss poor understanding of science.

In an Irish embassy, you can make an affidavit that your passport and documents with a different name are the same person. But it depends on each country whether or not they'll accept that.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354664#Comment_118354664

As already explained trans people can already change the "sex" category on their passport so it makes no difference really.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354537#Comment_118354537

Passports for many years have documented trans peoples preferred gender in many countries so your arguments are irrelevant really.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354366#Comment_118354366

They may not be interchangeable terms but they are often used interchangeably.

Do you see a problem here?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354623#Comment_118354623

What's law is not always what's right.

You can quote the extant law all you wish, but it doesn't make that law the right course of action.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355457#Comment_118355457

I never said you can change your sex. Legally effectively the law allows you to change it though.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355531#Comment_118355531

The UK law has been in place 17 years why are you only complaining now?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355463#Comment_118355463

You misunderstood. I am saying your arguments make no difference because the law was changed about 20 years ago in UK and roughly 10 in Ireland. A trans person in both jurisdictions can have their preferred gender identity recognised in the sex category on their passport.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355463#Comment_118355463

The same reason they play this silly game of "why do you care?" or "what impact does it have on your life?"

Basically, nothing to see here, move along... they're trying to bring through changes with minimal or zero opposition. They're trying to passive aggressively bully anyone who opposes their view of the world.

Government sponsored lying on official documents, is of concern to every citizen in society. Not just the owners of those documents.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355581#Comment_118355581

But how many sexes are there?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118355671#Comment_118355671

Google it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357154#Comment_118357154

Pro-gender-neutral passport advocates have consistently avoided all questions relating to this subject, and this is yet another example of the kind of evasion that I'm talking about.

As another poster has said, that side of the argument don't want to address the facts or arguments against their position. They want these kinds of passports smuggled-through-customs as fast as possible, without challenge and without addressing the key facts that impact the topic.

The triad is:

• argue that those who oppose it are, by default, 'transphobic'
• evade all questions that are against their position
• claim 'what harm will it do' as a response

Well if its totally acceptable to lie on your official passport then why can't we change our age too? What's that got to do with anyone else? Why can't I identify as 21? Why isn't that officially recognised on my government issued ID?

Not too long before I can identify as having my booster on my Covid passport if we keep going on with this nonsense.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118353409#Comment_118353409

Ha! All the chatter about forcing other people's choices on you (false) and not only have you admitted this isn't happening, but you also want to force your choices and beliefs on other people.

So f*cking see-through.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357347#Comment_118357347

This is the whole argument

"I don't like it so it shouldn't happen!"

Cancel culture from the same side who claim cancel culture is terrible 🤣

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357361#Comment_118357361

'Cancel culture' is about the ostracism of people from polite society for the crime of holding a perfectly respectable opinion.

Having an opinion about gender-neutral passports does not 'cancel culture' make. But when you are trying to force this through and accusing anyone who disagrees with you as 'transphobic', that is more resonant with cancel culture than anything else.

The irony...

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357371#Comment_118357371

"'Cancel culture' is about the ostracism of people from polite society for the crime of holding a perfectly respectable opinion."

Yup, which is exactly what you are doing, just because you don't agree with that opinion doesn't make it any less respectable.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357371#Comment_118357371

Noone accused you of being transphobic. You claimed you support trans rights. I have shown how this is demonstrably untrue.