Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness *spoilers from post 118*

youngblood

I can't understand,

if she can magic a world why she couldnt have magic'd her kids or vision back is a hard pill to swallow...........?????

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079581#Comment_119079581

Because they weren't real when she did it. Whereas through using the Darkhold she learned that the reason she magic'd them was because she dreamt of them because they were real in other universes. She wanted to either replace the Wanda in one of those universes or bring the kids into her universe, and that way they wouldn't be magic, they'd be real.

However, ultimately she was being affected by the Darkhold.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119077010#Comment_119077010

Agree. There were several points in No Way Home robbed a little of their impact by the obvious fact nobody was actually present in the same scene. It has been common place since before CoVid however: Infinity War had a bunch of scenes with composited actors (for instance, the big Tony Stark funeral scene that had nearly every major and minor character present in one shot).

I don't hate it on principle: film shoots are long, hard and getting all your actors in the same place can be a trial in of itself. But leaning too much on that style creates an artificiality to scenes, already straining by dint of the premises and drab cinematography.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079914#Comment_119079914

Pretty much everyone was actually there for the funeral scene.

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079937#Comment_119079937

Yeh I was just gonna say, I think PB picked the one example which was the only shot everyone was actually on set together for 😅

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079937#Comment_119079937

Jesus. Why did it look so fake then? Must rewatch that scene then cos at the time I was like eww, ugly compositing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079955#Comment_119079955

Seems to be the case. I blame the Russo's and their **** direction 😂

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079955#Comment_119079955

In fairness though, watching it there are definitely a few people you'd be 99% sure weren't there. Cumberbatch especially stays completely and weirdly still throughout. Chadwick Boseman also looks fairly CGI, but I think he maybe just looks a bit thinner, which may have been down to health issues at the time and not being in the BP suit.

johnny_ultimate

That’s definitely a weirdly shot and sometime awkward looking scene, but it’s clear at least most of the cast is there. I think this and NWH are by far the worst offenders on the green screen front - some of the scenes look like these awkward ones in one of the Netflix seasons of Arrested Development where they clearly couldn’t get two actors in the same room together! Some of the Flash scenes in NWH are absurdly clunky, and he’s not even in the same space as the other characters 😅

As said, some leeway is absolutely fair due to the pandemic’s impact on production and scheduling - it’s had an undeniable impact on what’s possible. But I haven’t yet seen any other ‘shot during COVID’ film or TV show that has had quite the same visible visual issues, and it definitely is distracting while watching. I don’t think the MCU gets a special dispensation where other productions have made it work: if you can’t get six or seven guest / main stars in the same room for the scene they share, maybe just focus on getting four or five instead rather than digitally pasting in the others?

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079091#Comment_119079091

So you do hang around Marcel threads being negative but you have a problem with people who hang around the threads with positive opinions.

Agent Coulson

Huge fan of Anson Mount and hope he can get a proper chance to play Black Bolt in the MCU

https://twitter.com/ansonmount/status/1526608169774067712?s=20&t=ZrC2Xyyni495vJsTnOr3Bw

flazio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119080954#Comment_119080954

Depends on how well Star Trek: Strange New Worlds is received for which he is the lead actor. It's already been picked up for a second season.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119080030#Comment_119080030

Did the other movies that 'made it work' have significant rewrites due to reordering of movies in a series caused by COVID and then strict timetables they had to then meet or it would have further knock on impact to later movies?

There is a definite argument to be made that this isn't a wise way to approach by the studio to have the most polished output but those involved in making these films simply weren't on a level playing field with other movies released during COVID and it shows. Whether you call it 'special dispensation' or not, context of the situation matters.

Fred Astaire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119080531#Comment_119080531

No I have an issue with somebody routinely nitpicking every critique of Marvel properties that somebody makes.

I didn't respond to somebodies positive opinion of the movie and say 'You are wrong about X', 'Your expectations were wrong on Y', 'This was their obvious goal with Z so you're silly for expecting differently'. That is what the other poster constantly does across every Marvel thread and it's so transparent and utterly boring.

pjohnson

I was surprised that Black Bolt was used at all as I thought Inhumans had been binned as a species by Marvel at this point.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081985#Comment_119081985

The joys of the Multiverse. It means even though Inhumans was supposed to be part of the main MCU, now they can just play it off as having happened in a different universe and therefore ignore it, but also use it if they want.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081994#Comment_119081994

Oh yeah thats an option but like even in the comics since the X-Men are back under Marvels control the Inhumans as a group were shelved after "Death of Inhumans".

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081946#Comment_119081946

I see you're continuing to 'recontextualise' my points to fit your agenda, now with added passive aggression.

It is incredibly rare that someone comes into these MCU threads and posts wildly positive opinions regarding Marvel movies/shows that are so discontented from my experience of them, ignoring the context of the movies and at times reality - which many of the negative comments I respond to do. Before you 'recontextualise' me again, I am not saying all negative comments I respond to or all negative comments about the MCU fall into those buckets - I have been clear repeatedly, including the post you raged about, that people can have different tastes. If there were regular positive comments that fell into those buckets, I'd be more than happy to respond to them and disagree.

It seems people can't disagree with negativity at times these days.

Fred Astaire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119083372#Comment_119083372

I've not recontextualised you at all, you can play dumb all you want. Your approach is clear to see - one only has to go and read over the last few pages of the Wandavision thread to see how condescending you get with this fanboyism. Particularly in your responses to Pixelburp.

You were over in the Shang Chi thread gatekeeping that too - describing criticism as "lazy analysis".

Anytime somebody criticises Marvel or their content, there you are making sure those critics are told what's what. It's so old to wander into these threads and see the same routine again and again.

johnny_ultimate

Mod note: @Fred Astaire and @Foxtrol - you've both made your points to each other so please take it to private messages if you want to continue your discussion. Thanks.

gmisk

Saw this morning and really enjoyed it, surprised it leaned so much into the horror stuff, great to see Sam Raimi managed to put his own stamp on it. Marvel stuff can feel a bit cookie cutter at times it definitely wasn't like that.

Great "cameos" opens up a whole multiverse of possibilities

flazio

Landing on Disney+ on June 22

https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/1532391842351828998?t=e_mpvLREctpb6umt-I2nHg&s=19

larchielads

It was on a certain apk last nite before i went to bed, 4k rips the whole shabang. Text a mate to tell him this mornin its there for your viewin pleasure for a friday nite. Just checked there now this mornin. Gone! All links gone. I know this apk usually gets it movies like a week before theyre due , it happened for spiderman and batman got to see em early so to speak. But this movie, all links gone.😢

fritzelly

Thought that was an absolute blast - 2 hours of non stop action and fun

DrZeuss

This was a bit of a weird film to me.

Having no idea who America Chavez was prior to this, I felt a bit lost as to who she was and what her backstory was, and I still don't think I know anything about her. Did I miss a TV show that explains her story or was she just shoe-horned into the story?

The original Doctor Strange (who was meant to be the best of us) has been dumbed down now in 2 movies (No Way Home and here) and I really don't see why they have done it, other than to try write him out of the universe (although with the Doctor Strange will return message I'm not sure).

Wanda's powers and her choices on when to use them and when to have a fist fight is peculiar. I also have to question why when she is killing Reed Richards, the rest of the Illuminati stand looking and do nothing until its their turn to be killed...again peculiar writing choices.

I wonder could Disney not convince Paul Bettany to return and that's why Wanda couldn't care less about re-imagining him even in her dreams.

Overall a feast for the eyes but not so for the mind. It's the better of the Disney Marvel's since Infinity Wars but that wouldn't be hard. It's not something I could see myself re-watching whereas the first Doctor Strange film is re-watchable due to it being about Doctor Strange (unlike the Wandavision series 2 movie here).

flazio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235472#Comment_119235472

In reply to your first paragraph. I'd never heard of her either. In fact I thought "America Chavez" was the name of the actor, not the character. Usually these characters have some sort of "superhero" name, like Ms Marvel, Quake, Yo-yo etc, even Jessica Jones had a "Jewel" moniker.

DrZeuss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235494#Comment_119235494

Ha, same here. I thought that was her real name too!

It appears she did have "Miss America" as her name at some stage in the comics, I suppose that explains the denim jacket and the star shaped portals but I feel a character so powerful should really have been given a better (longer introduction) back-story and not wedged into Wanda and the multiverse of madness.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235494#Comment_119235494

She becomes Miss America at some stage, but at this point she's just a scared kid who can't control her powers, rather than a super hero, so it makes sense that she is just who she is.

Thought this was actually quite a decent way of introducing the character, via an already established hero's movie. We got all her back story, and were there for the switch between being powerless and powerful, which is the real moment of superhero 'origin'.

flazio

I would have done her losing her parents backstory earlier, maybe as a cold opening.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235633#Comment_119235633

Maybe... I prefer it as it is though, that current opening does a huge amount of heavy lifting. Establishes multiple Dr Stranges, establishes those Dr Stranges 'needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' ethos, establishes this unknown kid being chased by evil forces, establishes their lack of control of their powers, and establishes that dreams are an insight into different realities.

FunLover18

I would agree that the film didn't handle America Chavez well, she was much more a McGuffin rather than her own character and the resolution to her struggles to control her power seemed far too easy. That said I like what we did see and I thought the actress was good, I'm looking forward to seeing more of her. As for the free exposition-heavy memory dump, it was functional but extremely lazy.

McDermotX

Probably one of the only remaining Marvel efforts I had any real compulsion to watch and had avoided it almost completely while in the cinema. Had heard some mixed word so had lowered expectations somewhat, even though I was I was interested to see if Raimi could put a decent spin on it. Don't mind Cumberbatch's portrayals of Strange either up to this point.

Hmm.........it's a bit crap really, isn't it ?

Maybe not Eternals bad, but very much in that lower tier of Marvel efforts IMO never to be watched again. Very little of Raimi in this, which is obviously a testament to how much of it was actually his production. Looks cheap, feels cheap, and pays the price for being for just being plain boring over everything else. Maybe someone who let WandaVision away with its numerous failings will probably enjoy this sequel to that show, but I was personally hoping to see a Dr Strange follow-up.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119240052#Comment_119240052

hmm, whatever about how good or bad it was, I definitely found there to be a lot of Raimi in this. Thought he really put his visual stamp on it, with plenty of moments/scene executions that were pure Sam Raimi

McDermotX

TBH, I think it's more a case of equating 'dead bodies, reanimated corpses and spirits of the damned etc' with the essence of Raimi's style, which doesn't marry for me at all. There's very little flare, wit or exuberance I'd associate with his best work IMO.

It's very much Marvel cookie-cutter thrown into what probably started out as a darker story which was never going to get through the Marvel checklist so we're left with some Derrickson-Raimi-Marvel mess which never really comes together or excites the viewer. The probable later development of Wanda's TV story introduced into this feels weak and unearned as a by-product for me.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119240559#Comment_119240559

God yeah I wouldn’t agree with that at all. For me there were loads of shots, camera moves and stylistic choices taken straight from the Raimi playbook. Was it as good as classic Raimi like Evil Dead 2 or Darkman? No, not at all, but if you showed me the movie and asked me to take a guess who made it, he’d be my first name (even without Bruce Campbell).

pixelburp

Justice for Pizza Poppa.

Gosh, that was a frustrating, but fun experience. Great to see a master return, even when shackled. As someone well-versed in Raimi's big bag of tricks I grinned every time he trotted out one of the classics; be it a giddy flourish of the camera, or all those ghoulish aesthetic choices. But then the MCU leash would tug, slightly but still perceptibly, and we'd be back to a boilerplate Marvel film, with all the requisite tropes and style (or lack thereof).

That criticism aside, the good outweighed the bad on balance but more than most MCU films, which have become cinematic background noise, I found myself yearning for that extra ten percent. That degree of greater slack on the creative control; it halted the film maddeningly close to greatness. Still, a round of applause to Raimi all the same for having the clout and vision to push the horror as far as he knew he could get away with. Maybe the experience of making the PG-13 "Drag Me to Hell" gave him that subtly of craft; the "... no mouth" massacre only possible from a director who knew exactly where the lines were. It puts pressure on that upcoming Blade adaptation, demonstrating that horror is possible within the confines of the MCU.

The compositing was garbage though, straying into something properly ugly; digital trash. Far too many otherwise mundane locations relied on green screen - even a simple rooftop scene looked deeply fake and flat. Maybe that was caused by CoVid, but the MCU has become very guilty of this kind of laziness.

magic_murph

Terrible movie - took me about 4 attempts to finish it.

Just all CGI with no real story or acting as such. Granted my faulty for hoping for anything other than CGI and poor attempts at comedy.

I am not a big fan of the Marvel movies and more watch out of curiosity rather than having a care for the characters.

At this stage I can't remember the last time I watched a good movie - everything just seems to be super hero style which gets old fairly quick.

johnny_ultimate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119256125#Comment_119256125

There's absolutely no shortage of great films out there, including many released recently in cinemas or on streaming platforms :) What kind of films do you generally like and we can try give you some recommendations!

Bacchus

Not quite sure how to feel about it now that I've seen it on D+. At the end of the day I enjoyed it and there's a lot to like. I just can't put my finger on what it is that has me feeling a little bit short changed. I think maybe it was the frantic pace of it and sudden quick twists. For example, it took all of 2 minutes to establish Wanda as the big bad. Maybe it was the balance of trying to have as simple a plot as possible (Wanda wants girls power so she can be with kid but that might destroy the multiverse. Strange tries to save girl.) in order to deal with the insanity of the multiverse setting. The Illuminati too were oversold and under-delivered. Neat body horror stuff with Black Bolt and Reed Richards aside, they were cool but far too brief cameos that only served as a detour to the main plot. I guess they further established Wanda as a serious threat. Wong was great this again, as was the new addition America. I feel Marvel have created a bit of a problem for themselves now with such massively powered beings in the MCU... Wanda (surely not dead), three eyed Strange and now America are powerhouses. I did enjoy Strange's quip though about choosing between the guy with the bow and arrow or the bug themed heros vs Wanda :) I just don't know where they can go with Strange now. That credits scene points at escalating the multiverse stuff which I fear might be pushing the boundaries of 'do I even care about other universes' in the MCU.

It's not a "top 5" MCU movie for sure but it still operates at a high bar. Raimi was the perfect director for it, bringing his horror flair and unique style. The dreamwalking exposition scene was a bit OTT though.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266689#Comment_119266689

I think my enjoyment of the film was entirely shouldered by the visual, creative flair of Sam Raimi / Bob Murawski. It was just so entertaining to watch Raimi showboat in a franchise like this. But at this stage the joins with the MCU format are bare & plainly visible; everything is just plot polyfill for the next movie, while requiring an increasingly large amount of backstory.

And with Disney+ demanding "content", the franchise is fast becoming as labyrinthine as the comics became back in the day. It's not enough to miss the odd movie, but if you miss some of the TV shows you could be totally lost. That said, my wife hadn't seen Wandavision and seemed to take Wanda's motivation and background in her stride (while other aspects elicited a "wait, who's that again?" so who knows)

More critically as a watershed moment: the introduction of the multiverse has the potential to render all death obsolete as a story pivot. Thanks to Raimi's flair the death of a Dr. Strange at the beginning led to a fantastically ghoulish pay-off & finale, our hero giving a pep talk as a half-rotting corpse something you can't design by committee; but you can't do that every movie - and I'm just waiting for the point where previously-presumed dead characters return. I'd put even money on Evans or Downey Jr. coming back at some point.

So I think "our" Wanda is dead, but as we saw in this very film there is at least another one with powers; not sure where she got her kids from, given that universe wouldn't have a Vision necessarily but she has magic powers. And while I thought the end of this film was a good change of pace for MCU films, without any tedious CGI laser fights, culminating in Wanda coming to a satisfying character realisation ... her actual death left me apathetic. She'll be back - it's just a question of paying Elizabeth Olsen enough money (not like you even need to share a set anymore with these films)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119256155#Comment_119256155

Well the first, obvious recommendation is that this film wasn't even the best Multiverse film to come out this year!

iguana

This was ok. It felt really disjointed at times and like it cut from scene to scene sometimes with something missing in between. What I found most infuriating though, was how this movie and the WandaVision ending just didn't seem to be the same story. Yet right up until 'Agatha All Along' this movie is exactly what WandaVision was hinting at. To the point that Wanda as the villain of Multiverse of Madness, endangering the multiverse in her quest to find her reality warped children was common speculation. It was just weird to broadly hint to the audience that the MCU is about to break into the multiverse and will be including actors who played characters in the Fox/Sony films through casting Evan Peters, then pulling back, making it into a boner joke and just a sign that Wanda was easily manipulated by a curious random witch. Setting Wanda up as a self-sacrificing grieving hero. Which just felt like a dull disappointing end to the series. Then doing a big bait and switch and within a few minutes of her appearing in MoM having her actually be mad and bad.

Why not have given WandaVision the stronger storyline and had it end with Wanda as an actual bad guy. It's common for different 'chapters' of the MCU to overlap timelines on big storylines. Ant-Man and the Wasp came out after Infinity War even though most of it's events happened before it. So WandaVision didn't need to jettison it's hints at a multiverse that included Fox X-Men actors, making way for more of those actors to become part of the MCU in order for Loki and NWH to happen.

kerplun k

Caught this on D+.

Have to say Im enjoying the direction MCU has gone post endgame in some of their films, between Black widow, Eternals and MoM, they’ve all offered something a little different to what you normally get with the MCU.

MoM is highly enjoyable. Credit to the cast for some strong performances and of course Sam Raimi. Those visuals of the possessed Strange corpse were gorgeous and will stick in my brain. Danny Elfmans score also deserves kudos here. Solid effort from Raimi and co.

If the MCU keep this up I might be even tempted back into the cinema to watch some of these movies.

Id love Raimi to see out the DS trilogy and push the envelope out even further.

DMcL1971

I had a lot of trouble following the plot in this one.

Last I remember Wanda was a hero, an Avenger, a beloved character and now she is willing to destroy the universe to get to her kids that live in another universe. Hang on, when did she go bad, whose kids are they.. I guess a lot of stuff must have happened in that Wandavision show that I didn't see cuz I was lost for most of the movie trying to figure that out.

It seems like I was supposed to know who America Chavez is. She didn't get established in the script. She has two Moms and switches multiverses whenever she gets frightened. Except Scarlet Witch kept frightening the hell out of her without her switching multiverses. I think the character development was that she didn't know how to control switching multiverses until the end when Strange tells her that she does know and then suddenly she does. Also did she have to be called America? Half the time they were talking about her I thought they were talking about the country. (We have to save America, Where is America?)

The visuals were great, really imaginative stuff. Always delighted to see Peggy in any Multiverse. I have no idea who the guy with the voice that can kill was but his character death was brilliant. How come you can kill Captain Marvel by dropping a statue on her, I thought she was the most powerful Avenger or close to it?

I burst out laughing when I saw Professor X in that little yellow Robin Reliant, that has to be a joke or a reference to something. Please don't let that be in any upcoming X-Men movies there's no way I'll keep a straight face.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119287763#Comment_119287763

I burst out laughing when I saw Professor X in that little yellow Robin Reliant, that has to be a joke or a reference to something. Please don't let that be in any upcoming X-Men movies there's no way I'll keep a straight face.

It's a reference to Professor X's wheelchair from the 90s cartoon

FunLover18

I ahve to agree the yellow wheelchair looked completely ridiculous and I hope that's the last we see of it in live action.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119287763#Comment_119287763

Short answers:

Yes, watching Wandavision was important before seeing this. Basically in Wanda's grief over losing Vision she lost control of her powers and trapped an entire town in a fantasy she created where she and Vision were together, and eventually had kids. During the show, it's revealed Wanda is prophesied to be a powerful magic user called the Scarlet Witch. She realises she has to give up the reality she created with Vision and the kids. That's why in this film, she's trying to find a reality where her kids are real.

America Chavez is a new character, hasn't been in or mentioned in any of the films or TV shows (but she is a character from the comics so they kept the name, hence why shes called America). So you're not supposed to know anything about her before the start of this film. She can punch holes to create portals to other universes, but she can't control it (rather than it just happening when she gets scared, she just can't control it and sometimes does it accidentally).

Black Bolt (the guy who can kill with his voice) is also from the comics, he's the king of the Inhumans. There was an Inhumans TV show that went for one season a few years ago, but it was apparently awful. But they brought the actor and character (or at least a multiverse variation of him) back for this.

For Captain Marvel's death, I think (but may be wrong) that the statue was of a female Black Panther and therefore likely made of vibranium, so maybe it was strong enough that it was able to crush her.

And yes, Prof.X's chair (and outfit, and the small bit of music that plays as he enters) were all references to the 90's X-Men cartoon. They're making more of that cartoon for Disney+ so it'll likely be in that, but don't know if it'll be in live action again. Probably not.

pjohnson

For Captain Marvel death Wanda depowered her before dropping the statue to smush her

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119288220#Comment_119288220

I was listening to the Blank Check podcast and they said Wandavision was scripted after Dr. Strange 2's script - or something to that effect (I might have been trying to settle a toddler at the time lol); while CoVid also messed up schedules for the two productions. That might go a long way to explain why the Wanda in this film felt a little disconnected from the events in Wandavision beyond "Wanda misses her kids". Myself, I had presumed this was just some way to minimise the impact of a TV show becoming a prerequisite of a mainline MCU film.

El Duda

Dr Strange and the Multiverse of Madness – 3/10

Awful. A real low for the MCU. There’s far too much ugly CGI to the point where it’s headache inducing. I don’t like what they did with Wanda at all. After everything they carefully set up in WandaVision they seemed to just abandon most of it so she could be a generic Marvel villain.

The scene with all the ‘cameos’ was stupid and contrived. They all looked so dumb sat there as the league of super best friends. 

Some nice Sam Raimi flourishes weren’t enough to save it. The MCU is creaking.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119291854#Comment_119291854

I’ve started watching the earlier movies with the kids and I don’t think the more recent movies or characters are as good.

Wanda was actually the strongest female character and she’s been discarded. The rest are quite weak characters or just not very interesting.

I think Stark , Thor and Cap were immense characters and the universe (and movies) is weaker without them. I do like Cumberbatch as Dr Strange but not sure his character has the same fun presence.

Iron man 1, Thor 1 and 3, the entire cap origin stories really were a great foundation for the franchise. The avengers 1 and the infinity/ endgame sagas were good at tieing characters together. Extra mention to GOTG 1 which was so much fun. Loki series was great fun, that character has grown so much, can’t see him not appearing again in future movies.

Every other movie was meh and paint by numbers bland.

I actually thought MOM was ok and it passed the time but it feels like alot of the new stuff is just not really offering much new. Just moving things around a bit , adding a bit of this and loads of CGI.

Cookie_Monster

Saw it at the weekend, weakest film I've seen in the MCU in a long time, but havent seen Eternals.

CGI fest with the zombie strange in particular looking terrible. Also very strong vibes of 'Merica, **** yeah! in future from the America Chavez character.