Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness *spoilers from post 118*

DrZeuss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119291910#Comment_119291910

Do yourself the biggest favour ever and stay well clear of Eternals, its possibly about 10% of the quality of MOM and that's being generous.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119292067#Comment_119292067

Eternals was really really bad.

flazio

Ah sure look, if you have the Disney+ sub going, stick it on and make up your own mind. They are set to return so there might be some important Phase 4 information in there somewhere.

I was Meh about it, same with Dr Strange 2, nervous about Thor, enjoying Ms Marvel more than I thought I would.

Mr.Nice Guy

I thought it was terrible. I skipped ahead to the guest star bits and found them somewhat interesting but then it was back to a very poor finish. I found the CGI pretty poor as well. Usual formulaic, Marvel light show. Wanda is a rubbish character as well.

razorblunt

“I can do this all day”

christ, the eyes rolled back so far in my head I missed the next 5 minutes.

kerplun k

Reed Richards, the smartest man alive my ass. I did laugh at that.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306358#Comment_119306358

It’s the lazy , let’s make a male character female and add nothing remotely unique to that character that annoys me. Stop shoe horning Female characters into male roles. I don’t care if the comics did it, make some interesting new unique female hero’s. Bet the next black panther is female and this will he celebrated like it’s some amazing progressive step in society. Really and truly , modern folk have little to worry about if this sort of nonsense is important to them.

They also seem to struggle to get comparable female leads who can have the gravitas of a super hero/villian role. Probably suffers because the roles have popular male comparisons and it just seems off when the females try to own the role (like how it can be hard for reboot actors to shake off the previous actors portrayal - good luck to anybody taking on the wolverine reboot ).

I actually think Olsen did a good job with Wanda. I also think Valkyrie was a really strong female character in the franchise. Blanchet was great as Hela. Gamora and Okoye are equally unique female characters that make the roles their own. They can do good strong female characters, but they revert back to trying to piggy back on established roles to squeeze in females.

Its like Thor, CA and iron man booted the franchise and now they want to replace them with females. Not sure if it’s a political statement or genuine effort to freshen things up but it just looks like “let’s make as many characters female as possible”. Well bring out new , interesting , unique female characters then.

pixelburp

In fairness, that whole sequence was Fan Service, nothing more. I wouldn't read into it beyond that superficiality; a neat little What If, a concept as old as comics, where she used Captain America's catchphrase as a callback. Plus, Captain Britain did get sliced in half, so not like it was some "Girls Get It Done" moment either.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119307965#Comment_119307965

Totally. It was based on the What If cartoon and was a fun aside. She may be getting her own show based off the popularity of it (well, not specifically that Captain Carter), but the idea that Captain Carter, Jane Foster's Mighty Thor, the upcoming Ironheart etc are in any way meant to replace the original Cap.America, Thor or Iron Man is just ridiculous. It's just using the same powersets to tell new stories because (in some cases) those original characters are gone.

They're not making male characters female. Some of those male characters are just gone and their story is finished.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119307965#Comment_119307965

In doctor strange, the main lead name character was really just a passenger while all the female characters did their thing. Strange couldn’t beat Wanda, he needed Chavez to do that. The strongest super hero/villian was a female who cut through any male hero’s like they weren’t even there. The only characters that gave Wanda a decent fight were Female and this was in a “doctor strangel” movie. If strange was taken out of the movie it would of basically been a bunch of women fighting each other and discarding any man that had the audacity to get involved.

Cant remember superman or Batman movies where the main characters were effectively useless at battling a villian and needed a female to literally fight their battles.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308001#Comment_119308001

The Dr strange “what if” was more relevant to strange then the doctor strange movie. It should of been called Wandavision or America Chavez one, strange was a side character and didn’t need to be in it. His role was to introduce and prop up the other characters.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308015#Comment_119308015

The entire movie is about Dr.Strange's character though. It's not about the fights or power levels, it's about the personal journey. Strange had to learn that he doesn't need to always be the one to fix things, and that his obsessions with having to do so are destructive (both personally and with regards to his power). His variants lost Christine because of it, destroyed universes because of it, would have killed America Chavez because of it.

America was able to help defeat Wanda because Strange learned to be able to let go and help her, because that's the culmination of Strange's character development in the film.

Also Cap.Carter and Cap.Marvel only lasted about 10 seconds longer than Black Bolt and Reed Richards, and because at the start they were trying to reason with Wanda rather than fight. Could hardly considered to be "discarding any man that had the audacity to get involved".

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308015#Comment_119308015

I don't disagree Strange was a bit of a passenger in his own movie, but the rest is a reach IMO; Wanda absolutely trashed the Illuminati without trying, after an initial attempt to reason with her; Captain Britain fared no better, throwing her shield only to have it returned and sliced in half. The whole point of the sequence was for Wanda to be a wrecking ball, conveniently killing off a bunch of Fan Service characters without touching the MCU as we know it. Totting up the seconds each character lasted is a new one to me.

The main weakness of the movie was Strange hadn't really much of a defined arc, beyond a sense of whether he was "happy" with his life, touching on some notion that his turn to the bad was over an obsession with Christine - but that's just bad scriptwriting in a universe beginning to collapse under the weight of always trying to tee up the next three or four stories down the road. Not some coded messaging going on. Instead, Chavez helped Strange learn to chill the F out and winning wasn't always about having the Most Power - but about learning to trust, be empathetic etc.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308088#Comment_119308088

So the entire movie was about strange learning to let somebody else win his battles. Great….😂

kerplun k

I wouldn't get too hung up on the Illuminati stuff. As PB said it was nothing more than fun fan service. Even the way they were just swotted off the board, it was easy come, easy go.

The one thing I would criticise about it is that they were used quite heavily in the marketing campaign, But I guess they spent a bit on getting Stewart, Krasinski et al, so they were never going to just leave them in as a fun surprise. That's just the nature of the business.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308130#Comment_119308130

And Indiana Jones never actually had any active hand in events during Raiders of the Lost Ark; scripts don't always hold together upon inspection, and even fans of Dr. Strange 2 admit the plot was all over the place - but it ain't because of sexism either.

Heck if we're gonna go down that road, then the script was actually very sexist 'cos Wanda's whole deal was basically "Mothers Be Crazy, I Want MY KIDS!!!".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308143#Comment_119308143

It was a total cocktease, especially the manner in which they used Stewart's voice in promotions - but not his image. As if they were being coy, somehow. And in the end, they amounted to < 10 minutes of the movie, in a story that actually had a critical lack of actual Multiverse travel.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308130#Comment_119308130

I don't see how that's what you could take from what I said. Again, it's not about the "battle", it's about the character development. Dr.Strange's personal journey was about realising he didn't have to be the one to win the battle. Christine explicitly says to him "You always have to be the one holding the knife. I always respected you for it, but I couldn't love you for it."

The film is about Strange learning to relinquish control, to not be hounded by his obsession with having to be the one who wins. He helps America to be the one to defeat Wanda to help her control and use her powers. He finally bows to Wong to show that he respects his position and leadership as Sorceror Supreme (rather than how he was making snide comments about how Wong only got it as Strange was blipped). And he also learns to let go of Christine rather than keep holding out hope he could win her back.

The film is entirely about Strange as the protagonist. He may not be the one to throw out a final magical floaty thing to defeat the villain, but he wins his own battle through his own story rather than the plot of the movie, and that's ultimately more important.

kerplun k

Yeah, the marketing was shameless.

I'm guessing this film started out as one thing and ended up being another. I wouldn't be surprised if they considered dropping the multiverse of madness title at some stage, but probably thought it would be too detrimental to the marketing campaign, but marketing aside, I thought it was a solid film, I really enjoyed Sam Raimis influence on this.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308125#Comment_119308125

Even the No name character lady got to destroy the book as Wong was strung up by Wanda.

This wasn’t a doctor strange movie , it was a movie with doctor strange in it. Just so happens that all the powerful and useful characters were female, maybe it was a coincidence but there’s nothing really to explain this overly female powered movie. It wouldn’t be the first “girl power” statement in marvel.

There would be carnage if a Wonder Woman movie came out where Steve Trevor and some other new male character made WW a passenger in her own movie. I am not interested in that either.

That’s the issue, marketing the movie as one thing “a doctor strange movie” and making another. If Thor ends up being more about Jane foster I’d have the same issue. It’s not that Jane shouldn’t have her own movie or moment, it’s that I’m not interested in that character and am going to a Thor movie to see what Thor gets up to.

If there was an alien reboot I’d be disgusted if they made ripley a man for the same reasons.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308519#Comment_119308519

You mean another female character who got unceremoniously zapped? 😂 Does it count as girl power if all these examples are characters who meet flippant, grisly ends?

The MCU films have become ensemble pictures; we're far from the era of solo outings with the giant cast but whole there's an argument about Strange being a side character - the gender stuff is a stretch.

pjohnson

Captain America Civil War was an Avengers movie far more than an actual solo Cap movie.

Its not new for the title to not fully mesh with the actual MCU film. The titles being somewhat contractually set. The more important part is the movement/development of the characters within it rather than who gets the title.

The whinge about sexism is a new angle but then again every movie/show post Endgame has apparently been "sexist" according to a few goons.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308645#Comment_119308645

But captain America played an integral role in Civil war, the entire story hinges on his relationship with Stark and Bucky. You could throw in anybody into doctor strange and take out strange and it would be no worse off.

It’s gas, the female stuff doesn’t actually annoy me that much as strange isn’t really a character I care much about. I watched the movie months ago , I’m Just calling a spade a spade.

kerplun k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308519#Comment_119308519

Ah come on out of that. There's no doubting that Strange was the main character here and of course it was a DS movie.

America Chavez was very much the secondary character here. Wanda was a powerful villain, nothing more than that.

Everything in this movie was centred around Strange and his actions.

Sure, It ends with him jumping into the body of zombie Strange to set Chavez up for the win, He dosent save the day himself, but this is better than something like Iron Man 3 where Pepper comes out of nowhere to save Tonys ass. Tony also gets help from a kid here. It dosent mean that this was any less an Iron Man film.

The only thing this wasn't, was a multiverse film. Its a movie with some Multiverse scenes in it 😀

DrZeuss

Dr Strange in the first Dr Strange movie (Avengers too) - World class surgeon, one of the best sorcerers, learns from books in quick time, defeated enemies by outsmarting them, could emulate future events in his head in order to pick the best and only event that would save earth, "meant to be the best of us"

In Spiderman No way Home - Dumbed down, makes loads of mistakes, gets outsmarted by Spiderman

In Multiverse of Madness - Dumbed down even further, makes more mistakes, side story in his own show, can't learn so quickly anymore, can't fight enemies anymore, no longer "meant to be the best of us"

Disney done similar with Loki, a smart character in the films dumbed down in his own show.

pixelburp

You're all missing the more obvious purpose of the film.

It's clearly an origin story for the greatest MCU villain of them all;

Pizza Poppa.

Stone Deaf 4evr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309016#Comment_119309016

1. can only emulate future events using the timestone, which he now doesn't have
2. made mistakes caused by parkers interfering, shows again his arrogance in thinking he knows better that everyone else
3. I'm not sure where he's ever been shown to be infallible, he clearly only has a vague understanding of the multiverse
4. Loki in the show is not the loki from all other films before it.

sometimes I feel I'm in a different continuity myself when i read some of the points people are nitpicking over. to sort of use the old 'Joker' meme

Folk have no issue with him going to a world where everything is made of paint, but make captain america a woman or captain marvel black, everyone loses their minds.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309016#Comment_119309016

This gave me a chuckle, the only person strange could beat in his own movie was another (supposedly stronger) version of himself, with music notes.

I miss the good old grimy days like when Superman turned bad, trashed a bar while getting drunk, nearly sunk an oil ship for a bimbo and only then beat himself in a brawl in a junk yard. 😂

In fairness we are really spoilt rotten with the amount of super hero movies we get these days. while I understand why, They really do play it safe to a very particular formula. In some regards I do enjoy some elements of this formula and it can make for enjoyable popcorn flicks. But I hope DC at least continue to offer something different with the likes of Peacemaker , Batman (that I don’t love but like the difference) and the Joker.

kerplun k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309016#Comment_119309016

The best of us... Didn't he get his powers because he was driving really fast while looking at his phone which resulted in a dangerous road accident 😀

DrZeuss

But didn't Strange make massive changes to the universe just because Parker asked him?

I get that's not the Loki we know, but why make a series about a Loki we don't know and yet still name it after the Loki we do know, when the OG Loki was such a good character and the new one is a dud who happens to introduce another female Loki who's much smarter.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309016#Comment_119309016

I think that's a general issue Marvel keep falling into lately; making their heroes so powerful so quickly, that you end up having to either go way the f*ck overboard with the villains, or de-power/dumb the hero down a bit. I imagine they're going to have the same issue with Captain Marvel

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309218#Comment_119309218

To be fair, inconsistent characterisation isn't entirely new within the MCU: let's not forget that just today we have the latest Thor movie, wherein the titular character went from a cod-Shakespearean heir apparent, learning to deal with the heavy responsibility of leadership ... ... to a himbo to be laughed at.

There is far more improvisation and ad-hoc development of these films than we might admit; Kevin Feige may give the impression as this puppet-master, in control of every subtly and nuance - but he's making it up as he goes along, just with a tiny bit more structure.

Dr. Strange is a hard character to grasp - precisely because he is, in theory, immensely powerful. What do you do with a character who can basically do anything? He could break every universe before breakfast - ok, uhhhhh ... women troubles, I guess?

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309190#Comment_119309190

I always took it to imply he would be the best of us, the journey there doesnt have to be paved in perfection. A person doesn’t need to be defined by one tragedy or mistake , in many cases the tragedy or mistake is what makes the person better, which is ironically what made strange.

Similarly Tony Stark selling weapons of mass destruction at the start Didn’t take away from his heroic sacrifice in Endgame. Indeed his flaws of selling these weapons defined his life efforts to get “peace in our time”.

DrZ is correct, strange has gone from a very powerful and clever wizard to almost a sideshow bumbling “funny” clown. Him and Wong are useless in the Spider-Man and multiverse movie.

So Strange learns he can work with others , fantastic , but he’s still relatively useless in the movie. How did it take strange the entire movie to work with Chavez on her powers, it’s literally the first thing he had to do in DS1 when he found out that he might be able to get the magical powers.

Anybody could of told Chavez that she can control her powers, literally anybody and the fact that it’s never crossed her mind on its own is a bit surprising considering she had the wherewithal to be able to survive jumping universes since she was a toddler.

As silly as Thor is getting, it works well with the character who still retains his power, arrogance (less so) and his aggression , three of his primary characteristics. Strange is just a passenger doing magic stuff that’s not as effective as it was when he was learning. It’s a shame because Cumberbatch is a quality actor but like with Mikkleson in the original strange movie, they are sort of wasted in these movies.

IM goes from playboy weapons manufacturer to committing and ultimately giving his life for peace. CA goes from rather naive soldier boy following orders to a natural leader of hero’s to retiring with Peggy in probably my favourite story arc of the franchise. Thor goes from a spoilt, cruel, war mongering boy to a much wiser hero (knows he’s not a leader) who is more in tuned with the damage war can cause but nearly and he’s way more chilled out.

Stranges meaningful story arc was in the first movie and then in Spider-Man and this movie they have indeed made his character kind of a prop for other stories that is weaker and thick.

I know you can break down any movie , even good ones and find flaws. But I feel the route they are taking with the Strange character is just not in keeping with how impressive he was at end of DS1 and IF. I can’t understand how a Stephen strange character wouldn’t try to help Chavez harness her powers.

Ah crap, I’m better off not thinking too deep with these movies, it’s far more enjoyable to just leave the brain outside when watching.

FunLover18

America Chavez was barely a character in this let alone one that took the spotlight from Strange. The one meaningful thing we learn about her we learn through a literal trip down memory lane. And as for "girl power", it could be argued (I'm not making the argument) that any girl power Chavez is meant to represent is completely negated by the fact that she has to learn from a man how to control it. Power sets always fluctuate in superhero movies and believe it or not people make mistakes.

pixelburp

Well yes, America Chavez was a McGuffin, not a character.

To be honest, the only reason I enjoyed this film at all was because of Sam Raimi's touch; that excitement to see his signature style and flourish added to a series crying out for some invention and frshness. The plot was all over the place, but given I couldn't give a stuff about Dr. Strange in the first place, so wasn't that put out by any apparent inconsistencies of character. But just as an experience, I had a far greater time of it than (say) Shang-Chi offered.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309389#Comment_119309389

America's powers aren't magic, not in the same way that Strange uses magic, so regardless of how well he learned how to use and harness magic, that same teaching wouldn't apply to America.

What helped America learn to control her powers was that the previous Strange's she met didn't try to fully help her, they tried to save her. We see at the start that when push came to shove, the Strange we saw there was willing to sacrifice America rather than trust her or teach her. It's why America tended to lose control of her powers when she was afraid. It was only because our Strange, having learned that he doesn't have to be the one to save everyone, gives her the trust and faith in herself she needed to be able to control her power.

It wasn't about telling her she could control her powers. She accepted that Strange should kill her to stop Wanda from being able to take her power (with even Wong shouting that he should), but Strange showed her that he believed in her enough, even when his other variants didn't. But again, that ties in more with how Strange evolved in the movie through his story, than how America evolved.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309511#Comment_119309511

That seems like Pretty flimsy reasoning She’s literally training at the end of the movie. It’s not that hard to try and help somebody learn to use their powers , again it’s that it’s Dr Strange, who did seem really intelligent and clever up until Spider-Man.

Listen, to be fair, these aren’t high brow movies so I shouldn’t be picking them apart.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309531#Comment_119309531

Yeah at the end she's training in the actual magic that Strange and Wong uses. That's learned magic rather than the actual ability she was born with.

I'm just saying, it's reductive to boil the movie down to how America was the one who beat Wanda and Strange didn't do anything. That's a plot point. It was Strange's story and character development throughout the film (as base-level and bland as it may have been) which advanced the plot and led to America beating Wanda. Christine and the Illuminati showed Strange that he and his variants are the biggest threat to the Multiverse because of how Strange can't cede control to others. Seeing what happened to other versions of himself led to him being able to give up that control to America so she could beat Wanda herself. It was his journey that led to the victory.

Foxtrol

Was wondering what made this thread explode and unfortunately it isn't surprising that it is someone going on a rant about women in the MCU - even if they only get a few short minutes of screen time.

As has been pointed out repeatedly the only way to try to make this gripe stand up to any scrutiny is to attempt warp clear facts to fit the narrative they are trying to push.

Some people are always going to find ways to complain about representation from anyone who isn't a white man (we see similar in Star Wars or even ads on TV) and though trying to point out the ridiculousness of their moaning I've never seen them admit that they were wrong.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309016#Comment_119309016

'The best of us' is way over analysed.

The comment was said by a flawed character who admits to not being able to see what happens post her death (which happens way before NWH)

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119308125#Comment_119308125

Don't feel it is safe to say the Illuminati deaths won't impact the MCU. Wouldn't be the first time a seemingly throwaway moment ends up being pivotal in later movies

kerplun k

The only thing that made this thread ‘explode’ was a nice discussion on what people did and didn’t enjoy from watching the movie. Not every opinion needs to be backed up by facts and every discussion doesn’t need to be an argument.

It’s perfectly okay to accept someone’s opinion even if we don’t agree with it. Shock/Horror I know.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309854#Comment_119309854

That section made pains to talk about "incursions" and two universes at war with each other so I'd say even money the Big Event is going to be the MCU fighting a bunch of Surprise Twist Cameos. Maybe it'll be seen that the MCU universe fired the first shots via Wanda.

My point was more that the whole sequence was a cheap way for a Kill the Cat moment, the illuminati useful sacrificial lambs for Wanda to slaughter - without the awkwardness actually killing some MCU characters would cause. I wondered that Wong might bite it, a little disappointed he didn't (even if I prefer him to Strange himself overall). The Black Bolt death was fantastic though, and made good use of Raimi's skillset.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310459#Comment_119310459

Well I disagree a 'nice discussion' begins and continues with rants about female characters, especially when at times they aren't even tethered to reality.

No problem with accepting other opinions when they are made in good faith, in this case the starting point is very clearly the poster being annoyed with female lead/supporting characters and then trying to work backwards to find excuses as to justify their annoyance. Similar happens in most franchises nearly every time the character isn't a straight white man.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119309411#Comment_119309411

But she didn't learn from the man to control it. Strange gave her confidence to find her own strength. Chavez story is about discovery about herself where she was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice of giving up her power

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310482#Comment_119310482

I wouldn't say 'surprise twist' cameos, they've set it up for it up perfectly for X-men intro via it now (I'm on record that I didnt want to see the multiverse bring them in but at least this makes some sense) and potentially even F4, if they do their movie set there before MoM.

Fair that it might be impactful if she got a known MCU character but only on an emotional basis. Killing the Illuminati so easily showed far more power than knocking off Wong or basically anyone else in the MCU barring someone like Thor or Hulk.

Barring killing off decent numbers of heroes in each movie Marvel are in a no-win situation really - complaints here that Wanda killing a bunch of very powerful characters which meant they overpowered her/was too easy/didn't give the other characters respect while in the Thor thread there are complaints that

Spoiler Warning

they didn't show Bale killing enough gods