Are we becoming worse as a Nanny State?

completedit

I think freedom is a relative concept, what we made up for in some areas we have given up others. I think we probably live in a far more ordered and structured society than existed before so in that way we are less free. Consumerism and materialism has meant a lot of us just became trapped in a different way than in the west. I'd say the last 2 years have probably been the worst to be alive since World War 2.

Unlike our forebears, people are no longer willing to accept the wheel of fortune as an ordinary incident of everyday life. People regard physical security not just as the normal state of affairs but as an entitlement. This is a perfectly rational response to significant developments over the last half century: higher expectations of government, to some extent encouraged by governments themselves; higher expectations of the law as an instrument of social welfare; higher professional standards; a more intense regulatory environment; and improvements in technical competence, which have given us much more control over our own and other people's fortunes.

corks finest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392342#Comment_118392342

Liberal woke shower we’ve become- sad country tbh

stress in kids/ teens now is intolerable compared to when I grew up in the late 60s - 70s

feel sorry that they’ll never understand the freedom we had , wasn’t perfect but at least we had time to make and learn from our mistakes

we appreciated what we had in our pockets/ family/ neighbours

no such thing as online bullying that was sorted on the streets

no real class system - no one had F all , v majority of Ireland we’re working class ( real working class)

our parents couldn’t borrow but saved to buy the carpet/ w machine: and eventually the colour tv

our old men all had banger’s of cars

we all ate the same grub - stew M t WT Fish on Friday

our expectations were lower and different

wouldn swap it

magicbastarder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE

Andrewf20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392209#Comment_118392209

Adam Curits (BBC) has a great documentary on this called the Trap (its on youtube). It basically illustrates how countries & politicians who endorse more freedom for its citizens, ultimately end up creating a world that is the opposite of freedom. Why? Because people work towards their own selfish desires more in the free society which then have to be reigned in.

Trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=matkDgZ00sg

BuildTheWall

I’d say there’s a significant crossover in the amount of people who want to ban the fags but also want to legalise cannabis at the same time.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118427230#Comment_118427230

What is that based on?

Potential-Monke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118427230#Comment_118427230

I'm waiting for cannabis to be legalised so I can quit tobacco altogether. I've managed to cut down to just using it in a spliff, but I would go pure joints if it were legalised.

Andrewf touched on it above, we want the government to provide everything and anything at our whim but not if it negatively affects them directly. and only as long as it directly benefits yourself. We want the government to be responsible for our own or private companies mistakes, but don't want to pay for it. We want a nanny state, but one that only affects everyone else except themselves.

Billy Mays

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118429591#Comment_118429591

Curious to know why you have to wait for it to be legalised to stop mixing it with tobacco? Why not just do it now?

BuildTheWall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118429591#Comment_118429591

Agree

Potential-Monke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118429905#Comment_118429905

The price. Mixing it with tobacco seems to make it last that bit longer. If legalised, and priced correctly, I'll no longer have to worry about extending it. Most likely, tbh, I'd change from smoking altogether and use alternative methods. I don't want to be smoking at all at all, I've been at the tobacco for long enough. But over the last few years as my cannabis use increased, my tobacco use decreased and my lungs are far, far better than they were 10 years ago. Getting rid of that last bit of tobacco would be great.

Could also be all a placebo type effect too, realistically the same amount of cannabis should last the same length of time whether it's mixed with tobacco or not, but in my own experience, I use more when I don't use tobacco. And I use tobacco in a style of 5:1 cannabis:tobacco.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118408068#Comment_118408068

That sounds like Plato's account of dystopian Democracy in Book VIII of The Republic. Its years since I read it but he says basically what you've said above, that liberated desire weakens the whole society and then creates a reigning-in reaction against itself.

Billy Mays

Don't see the price changing that much if it's legalised tbh. Government are guaranteed to slap a fat tax on it. There's fcuk all difference in the price of weed between here and Amsterdam really (average price per g in Amsterdam is €12 - €15) though obviously quality is a lot higher over there.

Potential-Monke

Yeah, again, same price would be just about ok because at least I know what I'd be getting. If I throw out €300 on an oz, I have no guarantee of quality, type, storage, mixing, etc. If I know that €300 will get me an oz of top shelf, quality controlled, guaranteed THC content, then I'll buy it there. That would reduce the chance of getting a crap to meh oz with no comeback.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118429939#Comment_118429939

Dry herb vapouriser no good?

TimeUp

I very much agree with the ban. It's not to say difficulties won't arise, but the whole point of it is to try and make everyone's lives more liveable and if it happens, as it seems it's happening, that many other countries join with the idea of the complete ban, it'll become all the easier to implement it without people getting around it. However I'm a bit concerned with the opposite global trend that is tending towards countries making things easier for recreational use of cannabis. I don't think it's a very good idea.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430291#Comment_118430291

Another thing - it just tastes.. bad here. Like the tobacco makes the taste tolerable imo haha.

Potential-Monke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430930#Comment_118430930

I haven't bought into vapes, I had a tobacco one for a while and it ended up making my chest worse so I stopped that, can imagine the same would happen again. I just don't trust the method tbh. Drinks would be my go to if they were nice/effective I reckon. And edibles of course. And I think dabbing et al is a bit too OTT. Only a matter of time before it's injectable!

Billy Mays

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431098#Comment_118431098

Couldn't disagree more. Taste of tobacco is horrible

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431057#Comment_118431057

Nonsense.

Cannabis legalisation is the biggest no brainer staring the government right in the face.

As things stand now I could easily get enough for a month within half an hour. Illegality is not a barrier to its availability for the vast majority of users. At all. It’s happening regardless but without any government oversight or regulation (or taxation).

It will bring in Billions in tax revenue and create hundreds of jobs. Millions will be saved in policing and court costs. All can be diverted towards more education and harm reduction measures. The gardaí will have huge amounts of time freed up to pursue the scumbags that beating teenage girls to a pulp rather than criminalising otherwise law abiding productive citizens.

Only dinosaurs who have no experience or knowledge of the stuff whatsoever oppose it, I’m sorry.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118393678#Comment_118393678

Actually I will correct you on some of your society wants people to take responsibility.

For some groups society, or at least the media, politicians, NGOs, state authorities do not care if they don't take personal responsibility.

Some groups are excused personal responsibility altogether and it is society that is continously blamed for their failings and their often anti society behaviour.

This is particularly in the case of violence, crime and anti social behaviour carried out by some people in our state.

It is also the case with lifelong career welfareists who don't think they should get up off their ar**es.

The "forever home" mullarkey by some entitled ones was great example of this.

How many times have we seen criminal behaviour excused by statements about where the perpetrators are from or how they grew up.

Our courts are littered with repeat offenders never taking personal responsibility or the justice system ever forcing them to take responsibility for their actions.

This will be yet another idea to hammer mostly law abiding citizens and probably find a way of fining or taxing them.

Law abiding citizens are easier targets.

And no I have never smoked and do think it is stupid habit causing lots of harm making some corporations rich.

But banning it will probably just drive it underground making criminals rich.

And if we are going to start making people take personal responsibility lets at least start with our criminal and lifelong welfare classes.

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394041#Comment_118394041

eh yeah this happened only in your imagination.

Clearly the move to ban ciggerettes is a good idea if in the future you accept the inevitable bans on cancer causing foods and the demon drink.

its a slippery slope.

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432259#Comment_118432259

Are there foods that cause cancer? I'm not being smart, I know consumption of certain foods is more likely to lead to cancer but is it the cause in the same way cigarettes are? I don't think there's a slippery slope here and I'm not sure an outright ban will turn cigarettes into the black market gold mine people are suggesting. It's a dying habit and it has no "benefits" unlike alcohol or other drugs.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434197#Comment_118434197

Yep absolutely. Frozen foods, highly processed foods (which comprise a large portion of the modern diet whether we like it or not) are highly correlated with bowel and colon cancers

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434256#Comment_118434256

If that's the case then do you not thinks governments should do more, not necessarily ban processed foods but surely there's a way of regulating the ingredients, changing food safety standards accordingly. I'm not sure I would describe it as a slippery slope if less cancer and better health is at the bottom.

seamus

"Slippery slope" is, like the "Domino Effect", a fallacy. The tendency to believe that allowing one thing to happen will inevitably lead to a progression along the same ideology. It's not a thing.

Banning tobacco outright is not the way to go about it, for the obvious reasons that prohibitions don't work.

But there are definitely some good ideas from the New Zealand approach. For example,

• Requiring manufacturers to reduce the content of the addictive substances within cigarettes.
• Limiting the number of places that can sell it, e.g. requiring a licence to sell it and limiting the number of licences which can be granted in any geographical area.
• Requiring retailers to keep it completely out of sight

The goal here is not really to stop smokers smoking, but to stop people from taking it up in the first place.

Other measures that would be effective:

• Making it illegal to add mark-up; i.e. retailers must sell at cost. This makes it unattractive to stock in the first place.

Our open borders make it much harder to police much more than that. Some people will still stock up when they go abroad or drivers coming in off the continent will have a box of tobacco. But if you shut down the street traders then your average 16 year old doesn't have many routes for getting smokes except through shops.

Of course driving and cannabis use is ever so compatible, no problem at all, sure it doesn’t affect the mind or judgement in any way, people just smoke it or eat it just because it’s there. Like alcohol, no harm ever done to anyone 🤔🧐

I think anyone who wants to do anything is capable of convincing themselves there’s never any harm to society.

I did take cannabis when young, hated it’s effects in me quite frankly, just made me paranoid as fück.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434411#Comment_118434411

Who’s advocating driving while stoned? Why would it be any different to drink driving?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434705#Comment_118434705

Perhaps not advocating but there’s plenty at it.

id know a good few lads who’d smoke all day and drive while doing it, I completely disagree with it, but it is what it is. Stupid people doing stupid ****.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434348#Comment_118434348

The goal here is not really to stop smokers smoking, but to stop people from taking it up in the first place.

Oh no, its better to keep smokers smoking and tax the crap out of them.. Banning the supply of tobacco would push it underground, but tobacco usage is not like cannabis or other drugs with an obvious high involved. The majority of smokers would stop smoking due to the inaccessibility of the product, because the temptation has been removed entirely.

"Slippery slope" is, like the "Domino Effect", a fallacy. The tendency to believe that allowing one thing to happen will inevitably lead to a progression along the same ideology. It's not a thing.

Except when it is. Legislation passed tends to encourage further additions and changes to be added over time, along with further legislation proposed along similar lines, due to the "success"or "acceptance" of the first piece. Failure to object provides the scope for those further additions/changes, and very few pieces of legislation or any legal framework has stayed unchanged, and stayed as it was initially introduced. The smoking ban and initial proposals for dealing with tobacco/smokers in Ireland has been modified many times over the last decade...