Are we becoming worse as a Nanny State?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436179#Comment_118436179

I really do have to laugh... I stated that there would be issues with reaction speed, and the ability to multitask while being stoned, and driving.... and then you give me a paragraph asking similar questions.

I don't feel that driving under any influence whether that's alcohol, cannabis or glue should be legal or tolerated. The issue of driving was raised as a counter to legalising cannabis earlier in the thread.. which is why I made the comparison with using/holding a phone while driving... which I consider just as bad.... in relation to driving.

Do I think that cannabis should be legal? Yup, definitely. I don't believe it should be a free for all though. Then again, I also believe that tobacco and smoking should be legal and without the heavy taxation that the government places on it. Allow adults to choose for themselves if they want to damage themselves... insofar that it doesn't directly affect other people (which is what the smoking ban performs adequately, except for those non-smokers who love to enter the smoking area to complain about smokers).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118437010#Comment_118437010

to be fair the tax on cigarettes is in response to the costs to the HSE and similar for treating smoking related illnesses. Cancer, COPD, etc.

I smoke and while the price does piss me off I can’t say it’s unfair.

dubdaymo

those of us who are vaccinated have a right to go about our business seeing as we are responsible adults who took personal responsibility.

For the past several weeks the vaccinated have been swanning around infecting thousands up thousands of other vaccinated in numbers not seen before - exceeding 20,000 a day...and you call that personal responsibility?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118439106#Comment_118439106

Is the tax on cigs really a response to the costs to the HSE for smoking related illnesses, or simply a convenient excuse for said taxation?

I'm on private insurance (have been throughout my life), and will end up paying out of my own pocket (due to the state of the HSE) for any treatments I might need (I've tried getting help from the HSE for other non-smoking issues, and in the end, needed to find my own alternatives outside of the State service). In addition, as a smoker we tend to pay more than non-smokers for a variety of other products/services (Life assurance/insurance, and others) which also translates into more taxation for the government of smokers throughout their lifetime.

And yes, I do consider the prices to be unfair. They've gone far beyond what could be considered reasonable.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118439206#Comment_118439206

At this point, people are only pretending that vaccination reduces spread...obviously it does not so people should stop lying, or referring back to statistics that supposedly show it 'theoretically' does. In practice it doesn't and anyone can observe that for themselves through case numbers or personal experience.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118439438#Comment_118439438

Is the tax on cigs really a response to the costs to the HSE for smoking related illnesses, or simply a convenient excuse for said taxation?

It’s both, really, although the Government doesn’t ring fence revenue from taxation in the way it’s assumed revenue from tax on tobacco products is spent on tobacco related illnesses. The ‘sugar tax’ is another example of a response by Government to an issue of public health, which is also a convenient excuse for said taxation. It’s why fizzy drinks which previously contained enormous amounts of sugar, now taste like shìt, as producers try to reduce their tax liability -

A spokesperson for the Department of Finance, however, told TheJournal.ie that there is no plan to ringfence funding raised by the tax for initiatives targeted at reducing obesity in the Irish public.

The spokesperson said: “The Department of Health is responsible for developing an evaluation framework for the sugar tax, which will provide evidence on the efficacy of the tax from a public health perspective.

“Hypothecation (or the ring-fencing of taxes for specific and related purposes) is not a feature of the Irish tax system in general.

https://www.thejournal.ie/sugar-tax-revenue-5212076-Sep2020/?

For the same reason, arguments that the revenue generated from regulation and taxation of cannabis products could be spent on public health and educational awareness programmes, doesn’t follow. It would be like suggesting that someone should be denied healthcare and left to die of lung cancer for example even though they have never smoked, because they did not foresee that they would develop cancer and therefore cannot avail of funding that would be ring fenced for smoking related illnesses.

I think the price of tobacco products and whether or not they are reasonable is relative - they are a luxury product which are unaffordable to some, and affordable to others. That the individuals who can afford them can also afford private healthcare isn’t really the point, as the Government doesn’t withhold the availability of public healthcare from the public on the basis of whether or not they’re a smoker… or the fact that they’re far too fond of their fizzy drinks 😬

It’s true too though that I don’t foresee either smokers or obese persons engaging in public protests any time soon against increasing taxes on discretionary luxury goods and services such as tobacco products and sugar loaded drinks, and I just don’t imagine there would be much in the way of sympathy from the general public for their cause, much like the way there is a lack of public support for the legalisation and regulation of cannabis products for recreational purposes, even though there have been concerted attempts by some politicians to argue for its legalisation and use for medicinal purposes. That idea truly does lend itself to the idea of a Nanny State, instead of just being up-front about their intentions for it’s legalisation.

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434348#Comment_118434348

many critics of the fallacy angle acknowledge that "slippery slope arguments (i´m not really making an argument) can be good ones if the slope is real. in this case the slope is basically real. Ban smoking which causes cancer. what else cause cancer? lets discuss banning those. And i´m not saying its necessarily a bad thing. some of us eat and drink too much and are wrecking our bodies. however clearly a huge portion of blame is on corporations and regulation. see fructose in the USA for an example.

its not just some parade of horrors. its a very real creep of state intervention and an acceptance by certain people of that intervention. hell in Ireland we often invvoke the givernment into literally everything.

the EU has moved to fund red meat warnings (again something i´m not against) and like we still haven´t seen the full arsenal of the drink tzars. Booze curtains, black labels, time slots, and so on. Ba n cigerettes, grand. but you are kidding yourself if you don´t think that in future other agents of self destruction (the blame is always passed onto individuals) are up for debate. back in the past prohibition was driven by the underlying damage alcohol did, but not the literal underlying damage. we can change the slippery slope argument to a normal analysis. it goes to follow that once smoking is banned and the people educated as to why, the next target will be other cancer causing drink and food. some of that will be good of course. some of the food stuff will be looked back at in the future as to what were we thinking. I mean its crazy to think about smoking on airplanes, and the idea that nobody thought inhaling smoke into their bodies was bad. in the future we might realise our bodies weren´t meant to horse into cured pig fat.

so by using the slippery slope ¨fallacy¨, i´m not necessarily critical of what is to come. i´m only saying it to prepare people. maybe in the future instead of slurping into 6 or 7 pints we take a small dose of a controlled pill. the cancer rates are mad when you break down some of them. liver cancer in France due to wine, stomach cancer due to high salts in asian countries (think miso soup).

i´d be pro a smoking ban. but its clear that in the future alcohol and other cancer causing issues are in the crosshairs. again it seems a no brainer, so i can´t say i´m being critical of it. if you think its a fallacy you really haven´t being paying attention to the last few years. there´s a prevailing culture of we cannot die starting to drift into society with all the problems that dredges up, particularly mental. daily articles about people dying or getting ill, government doing all they can to prevent covid deaths. people die. many many things cause cancer in humans. every day our bodies are battling cancer in some shape or form. it makes sense that as we gain more insight into the human condition we attack things that try to kill it.

TLDR:

A slippery slope argument is not always a fallacy. A slippery slope fallacy is an argument that says adopting one policy or taking one action will lead to a series of other policies or actions also being taken, without showing a causal connection between the advocated policy and the consequent policies. the latter in this sense is just common sense, and even perhaps welcomed.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392209#Comment_118392209

always seemed odd to have family cars capable of 200kph and max speed is 120kph

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118447591#Comment_118447591

Without using user-hostile artificial nasties like limiters a car capable of only 120k wouldnt be very nice to drive. You'd have to drive it flat out on the motorway and that wouldn't be very efficient and would take ages to accelerate to that speed

Feck sake they talking about mandatory vaccines now, the power has completely gone to the f**kers heads ! I really don't see the point in chasing the last few % of anti-vaksers at this point, when the omicron wave is likely to subside any day now