Irish language gets full EU status today

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432381#Comment_118432381

Putting up "Sean Sliabh" is not explaining it to Irish speakers. It is using the proper historical name. It just so happens that that name means something. But that is the same with most placenames - even if you are not aware of the origins of them.

You are looking at this from a completely different prism which I think sees anything related to Irish language as either suspicious or an attack. The language is the oldest language in Western Europe. It existed long long before the distinction "Catholic" and "Protestant" came into being.

The name derives from "old mountain". So there is a history there. But the name of the location would represent more than it's origins. "Newcastle" in England is more that just a castle, and that castle is not particularly new! However the origin of the name is still a valuable part of its history.

That place you refer to was likely never called "old mountain". It isn't its name and never was. But it is the translation of the origin/explanation of the name. It would have been called "sean sliabh" and when later newcomers tried to adopt that they spelled it differently. That version has no meaning other than identifying the location by its use. So you can explain the origin as meaning "old mountain" if you want, but "old mountain" was never the name.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432228#Comment_118432228

Well DC that is certainly interesting, but you have already said there are 30 houses on the road, 5 are unionist and 25 nationalist. The original vote was 6 in favour and 5 against, with 19 (probably all and certainly mostly) nationalist.

In the adjoining road where he lives, one of the nats (apparently with a very small N) might now move away, likely to be replaced by a more nationalist type. Still, from your point of view, it must be reassuring to know that some CNRs are not in favour of Irish much - there are quite a few of them in the south too.

On the other hand, a lot of people who came over from Scotland would have spoken Gaelic, essentially a dialect of the same broader language group that Irish also belongs to, and very similar to the original Irish of E and NE Ulster. Then again, quite a few Gaelic Irish in the Downpatrick area also changed religion - the Gracie surname for instance was I think originally Ó Gráinne. What I am getting at here is that a lot of people on both sides of the divide have Gaelic origins, and many unionists would discover this if they cared to scratch away the modern British label pasted on top. This doesn't mean they have to like Irish, but it may allow them/you to be more understanding of their neighbours who want to breathe new life into the language.

While (I'm taking an example I know) Shan Slieve Drive is partly badly-spelt Irish, it is also partly good English. (Your address may not include the word Drive), so replacing this by Seansliabh Drive would not make it Irish either, but a different bastardisation. And finally, the word was never pronounced Sleeve in Ulster - more like shlee-oo, so it's definitely not very phonetic in that area.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433240#Comment_118433240

Google Downcow and previous comments about where he lives. The demographic breakdown of his area has changed depending on the post and the point being made. It was previously a moderate unionist area.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433384#Comment_118433384

Fair enough, I haven't come across him/her before. But then a lot of people might call Eddie McGrady (who used to be regularly elected in the SE Down area) a moderate unionist!

steddyeddy

Now DC you know the bit quoted below isn't true.

Downcow

I was thinking about Linda Ervine and wondering about her path. Did she grow up in a very unionist community with zero exposure to Irish, and then when she encountered it was it with people who just loved the language , with no struggle attached. I didn’t get that chance. I grew up surrounded by all the worst aspects of it and it was part of ‘the war’.

You previously said you had pleasant experiences when your father used to speak and sing to you in Irish. You stated this and many others in response to people commenting that your experiences are shaped exclusively by bigotry against Irish nationalists.

Drop the false shock. You knew rightly what I meant and tbh my dad who was from your country always referred to it as the soldiers song and his party piece was to sing it in Irish. So I’m not sure what the issue is. Should he not have been allowed to call it the ss or was he wrong?. Is that not it’s name? And if not then where did that come from ?

So what is it? Your dad sang and spoke to you in Irish or you have had zero positive experiences with Irish? Also you stated that Linda Irvine's Irish speaking efforts were and unusual for a unionist yet you described your dad as as a staunch unionist who spoke Irish. So could you set us straight?

I take no offence at your posts about unionism rather I take offence that your posts change crucial details about your life, your political ideals depending on who you talk to. It would be great for some clarification.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432525#Comment_118432525

I don’t think I said that. If I did it was a typo. Could you show me where I said that

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432541#Comment_118432541

I’m not in Ireland. I am in the Uk

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432542#Comment_118432542

Surely the people who called it “Sean Sliabh" were calling it old mountain in their own language?

therefore it would be really interesting to have that on the name plate along with some of the other stuff.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433384#Comment_118433384

Now you are just being silly and making stuff up. Could I ask someone like francie who I doubt has ever agreed with me on anything, to directly comment on this. Have I ever implied I live in anything other that a very dominantly nationalist/republican area?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433748#Comment_118433748

Well I am starting to take offence at how you are twisting my posts. If the republicans posting here have integrity then they will challenge this wind up nonsense of yours.

I have said how my father had a extremely negative experience of learning Irish in Donegal. The very fact he was able to shock family and friends with his rendition of the ss should tell you that we knew no one else who could have done it.

I can’t answer this for you but you need to examine why you feel the need to try and undermine my integrity.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433988#Comment_118433988

You ask me to be honest...frankly downcow, at this stage I take everything you say about where you live, who your multiple conveniently endorsing nationalist friends are etc etc with a grain of salt.

If steddyeddy has picked up something ambiguous in what you have said the wrong way, let the two of you work it out. You have a habit of saying stuff and backing away from it when challenged and blaming the challenger.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434207#Comment_118434207

Now I know where I stand. Always good to know where you stand.

so steddyeddy it’s put up or shut up. You tell me I am lying about the makeup of my area. Let’s have the evidence posted?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433914#Comment_118433914

I think most people would agree that Co Down is both in Ireland and in the UK.

While there is a state called Ireland which doesn't cover the whole of the island, people don't use the word Ireland to refer to that state except in official contexts. I suspect you know this and are just trying to wind us up. To be honest there is no worthwhile discussion possible when we get down to this sort of linguistic mumbojumbo.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434382#Comment_118434382

It was just the predictable deflection, indulged when the argument hits the end of the cul de sac.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434382#Comment_118434382

Well I have been scolded here for calling it roi I have been corrected several times and told the country is Ireland.

I like the fact I live on the island of Ireland but it is important to me to be clear which I am talking about. Read the post again that I was responding to and you will see that the poster knows exactly what he is doing.

i don’t know anyone in my community who would describe themselves as living ‘in Ireland’. We would certainly say we live ‘on’ the ‘island of Ireland’.

I will try using ROI for a while but will expect to be told that I ‘can’t even respect the country enough to give it its correct name’ or ‘what has a football team got to do with this thread’. I have had them both several times.

remember I have been in trouble on this very thread for reminding people of the archipelago that we all live on

so just remember we look at this from different angles

ps YOUR language is also key. You say that everyone would agree that County Down both in the Uk and in Ireland. In my view when you say ‘in Ireland’ you are referring to a country. I don’t think anyone would say they live in the American continent, they would say on the American continent and in the USA rather than on the USA. But I guess you knew that and were just trying to wind me up

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431232#Comment_118431232

I'm atypical, and my "mongrel" background is a strong influence on that, so I wouldn't want people to think that my experience or my take is representative of people generally with an interest in the Irish language. Having said that, I do know many who'd agree with me. Right now though, I'm thinking of one Gaeilgeoir who learned the language in the 80s and 90s while being housed compulsorily by Her Majesty - and who is more passionate than anyone I've met about the need to listen to unionists and loyalists, and in particular to listen most closely to the opinions we find hardest to hear.

I think there's a lot of similarity between the positions people take in a divided society and those we take in debates in cyberspace - as in this cartoon.

If a load of them others think a thing, that thing must be wrong. And what becomes more important than the thing itself is how we set it up as a symbol of the "other", or more accurately, an external representation of our own fears about the other and about ourselves. I remember reading somewhere (fecked if I can find a reference now) that we choose what and who we love, and of course we choose what and who we hate. I believe we can choose what to find offensive or what not to find offensive, which of course means that if we choose not to find something offensive, it makes it much harder for our ill-wishers to offend us.

As far as I know, Linda Ervine was introduced to Irish in an introductory course run under the auspices of the Methodist Church in the 00s, having never spoken the language before. She went on to set up short courses in the language, and is currently studying for a degree in the subject. As she said herself, you can use Irish to say "ná géillimis" (no surrender) or "tiocfaidh ár lá".

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432066#Comment_118432066

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431192#Comment_118431192

Self declared indeed, I can see how that would be perceived as a tautology on my part. What is the Irish word for tautology by the way, if there is one? Anyway, my essential point is that stats on Irish language speakers are based on a self declared ability to speak, not measured ability to speak. There has always been the charge of inflation of numbers as a result. Nonetheless, the same (albeit self declared(!)) data on use of Irish on a daily basis, outside an educational setting, was 78000 or 1.4% of the population. About 50,000 of those reside in Gaeltacht areas and Dublin/Cork city, leaving 28,000 approx for the rest of the country.

I was surprised therefore to read that one locality, I believe in a region with the lowest self declared proficiency in Irish at any level, has witnessed a spontaneous outbreak of daily usage of the language. Assuming the reporter is not under a misapprehension, it is a remarkable story. One that should be enthusiastically received and studied by those of us with an interest in growing the language. I wonder what made the difference?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431758#Comment_118431758

Thanks for the link. I was on a flight to Copenhagen years ago in the days when complimentary tea and coffee was still a thing. I thought I heard a steward speaking to me in Scots (or mixed Scots and English) when he asked if we wanted "Mere te? Mere kaffe?"

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435332#Comment_118435332

The point about 28,000 people speaking the language on a daily basis in the "rest of the country" is a fairly simple one: it has to do not with overall numbers, but density of (known) speakers. The population density in Ireland is low outside the cities, and unless you know person X or Y or Z speaks Irish you are not likely to strike up a conversation on the off chance. So you need to a) know the person, b) know that they speak Irish and c) interact with them on a fairly frequent basis if you are to become a "daily speaker".

Of course it could be easier than it currently is, but I'm describing how it is at present.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435332#Comment_118435332

Athluaiteachas. Luaigh is the verb to mention. Luaiteachas is the act of making mention. Ath- means to repeat.

Everything in the Census that is self-declared is - at the risk of athluaiteachas - based solely on the declaration of the person completing the Census form, and not on external measurement.

You made your point. You made it badly. Now you're having changing your angle and having another go. As I mentioned to the OP earlier, regardless of the starting point, all of these debates collapse into the same end point of blinkered people telling us how much they hate Irish. This is your moment, so just let fly. Don't waste time with arguments, because all that matters is your hate, and no matter what is said in reply you'll just find more words to express your hate.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435259#Comment_118435259

In my view when you say ‘in Ireland’ you are referring to a country.

For a nationalist of any stripe, the island is the country. For many of the unionists I know, it is also, just they feel British while living in Ireland and the UK.

Back just over 100 years ago with the exception of the small percentage who lived in "West Britain" the whole population regardless of religion or politics were agreed that they lived in Ireland.

This is all axiomatic, and you already know it so I'm going to leave it there.

Now can we talk about Irish in the EU please as alluded to in the title of the thread?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435332#Comment_118435332

I can speak a smattering of Irish but I said I didn't speak it on the census.

If I am hearing Irish being spoken around me and seeing the GAA initiative and we are 4th lowest...I'll take that as a positive regardless of the snide remarks Finty.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435527#Comment_118435527

What made the difference?

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435527#Comment_118435527

I've been in St Tiernachs Park Clones at a few league matches over the years and I've never heard anyone of the home supporters using Irish. Not once, even when they were roaring at the ref.

Maybe I was in the cheap seats and should have gone to the progressive, middle class section instead?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435571#Comment_118435571

The club I was talking about Finty...scroll their page, you'll see what I mean.

Killeevan Sarsfields GAA Club (Cumann Peile na Sairsealaigh, Cill Laobhain) | Facebook

Unfortunately I have no recordings of kids conversing with parents, you'll just have to take my word on that...but I guess I'll just get some more snide remarks.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435460#Comment_118435460

Why are you talking about hate? That's certainly uncalled for and you have prejudged/ misjudged my point. That was simply that we should look at the situation objectively, using controlled measures, and not allow wishful thinking about what we want to happen cloud our view.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435630#Comment_118435630

Your hate is in your snideness Finty. Loud and clear.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435674#Comment_118435674

Worrying that anyone who questions the pre-determined narrative is accused of hate. A totalitarian approach to debate.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435837#Comment_118435837

I gave my personal experience, you dissed it from the get go. Away up the yard now trying to talk nonsense about 'pre-determined' narratives.

Like a few others here, you'd cut off your nose rather than have the shinners or people you hate succeed in rescuing your language.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435870#Comment_118435870

The last line reveals the true nature of your intent to commandeer the language for a narriw. political narrative.

But if you insist on making claims of one party 'rescuing' a language, please remember, every Gaelscoil in the state has been built by FF or FG governments. FF enshrined the language in the constitution. FF delivered EU official status. The national radio and TV stations delivered as Gaeilge were founded under FF or FG governments. The promotion of Irish in the primary school system was devised by FF. All the Gaeltacht economic programmes in place were put there by FF. The success or otherwise of these initiatives is a separate matter, but the 'progress' you report in your region has been brought to you by your FF government. Enjoy.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436210#Comment_118436210

Typical, willfully miss the word 'or' in the sentence and go on a 'predetermined' fantasy run. It isn't FF and FG money and it certainly wasn't FF and FG activism that propelled the Gael Scoil movement.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435485#Comment_118435485

Well there we are. If you say it then it must be right.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436233#Comment_118436233

No party invests their own money, they invest citizens' money. Thus it has ever been. But FF and FG instituted all the policies that have successfully grown the language, like you said.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436470#Comment_118436470

Yeh, tell that to my local GS which spent 15 years in a rodent infested portacabin pleading for funding. Yes Finty...citizens money.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436485#Comment_118436485

For years your local GS didn't meet the pupil numbers requirements to secure funding Francie, it wasn't government discrimination no matter how how wish to portray it. However, large sums were spent by your ETB on new buildings for primary and secondary gaelscoilanna in neighbouring towns.

Ah, that's much better. 😊

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436880#Comment_118436880

That seems strange when all the kids were running around speaking Irish in francies locality. mmmmm that might explain his belief that Irish signs are going up all over the north without controversy. All is becoming clear.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118437740#Comment_118437740

There are probably more native Ullans speakers than native Irish speakers in that part of the country. But still, it is great to hear that the Irish language is beginning to flourish. Lessons to be learned for the nation as a whole. I must visit in the summer to witness for myself.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436880#Comment_118436880

I wonder where regulations came from that ensured that the school would not be approved for funding? From on high, or from D2?

It's an important question because if the regulations were changed there would be a lot more Gaelscoileanna around. However successive governments have created a system with a series of checks that make it difficult to get a Gaelscoil up and running. This involves jumping through a range of hoops for funding, as well as a system whereby trained teachers with fluency in Irish are often not available at primary level. At secondary level things are much worse because Galway University no longer bothers to teach a wide range of courses through Irish, meaning that teachers have to train themselves post graduation in order to be able to teach in a Gaelcholáiste.

This series of bottlenecks - each of which chokes the growth of the Gaelscoil movement - did not come into existence on its own. Decisions had to be made somewhere that brought each of these situations into existence.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118437788#Comment_118437788

In County Monaghan? I wonder if you realise that it is one of the three counties in Ulster that were not planted during the Plantation of Ulster?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118437740#Comment_118437740

As I understand it, Francie lives in Co Monaghan. It has the highest density of children attending a Gaelscoil (outside of Galway and Donegal, the two main Gaeltacht counties) so maybe it is no great surprise that he now hears children running around speaking Irish at GAA matches.

http://www.gaeilge.imeasc.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/IMEASC-Heat-Map-of-in-IME-@-primary-Download-file.pdf

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430200#Comment_118430200

I'm wondering what 'meaning' one should get from a county division being described as 'the fort' . There's really no meaning at all.

What fort ? Where was it ? Who built it ? Was it big or small ? Is it still around ? etc. etc. 😃

No one needs to know what ,if any, meaning a county has ( in any language) . It is known where it is ,people can find their way there. That's all that matters. 'An Dún' might as well mean 'the bucket' or 'the back axle ' or anything -it doesn't matter a damn. Surely a man of your intelligence can see this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118440999#Comment_118440999

Dún na nGall. The back axle of the foreigner. Jesus wept, aren't some people just cuckoo bananapants?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442455#Comment_118442455

Well I am on your side in this in that I do see interest in knowing the meaning. This though is an excellent example to back up my point.

let’s imagine it is in ni and the sign reads ‘welcome to Donegal’

i am imagining that all proficient Irish speakers know what it means? The vast majority who are non Irish speakers have no clue what it means.

now my Council is trying to tell me Donegal is English and they will create an equitable position by adding the correct Irish spelling. Still only the Irish speakers though could understand it. Would some posters not consider shifting their position and accepting that this is not dual language and certainly not equitable?

my point is add Dún na nGall if they must and probably add Ulster Scots then as well for equity. But surely most of all, add the English the fort of the foreigners below the sign. That is a wonderful piece of info for locals and tourists alike. I have a love for and connection with Dún na nGall and I never knew what it meant.

now this really would help beginners and instil interest in Irish history and both languages. To see signs like Donegal have the English on them will prompt most people’s curiosity to know more.

why is this regarded as ridiculous and unreasonable by so many on here, and my republican Council?

I can only see that this position is borne out of either insecurity or blind sectarian stubbornness - unless someone can give me a more realistic reason.

downcow

What was it francie said “they are going up all accross the north without issue” (not verbatim)

This weekends Belfast telegraph, and this just about my council https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/grinders-used-in-spate-of-attacks-on-dual-language-signage-41220971.html

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443990#Comment_118443990

But what do you want us to take from this DC? These people are knuckle draggers that would freak out if someone of a different ethnicity moved next door. They shouldn't be used as a barometer for cultural acceptance or otherwise. Next you'll be telling us the KKK don't like African Americans moving into the area so we can assume African Americans are bad.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455889#Comment_118455889

I told you what I wanted you to take from that tiny bit of evidence to add to all the rest ie francies claim that they are going up everywhere with controversy is at best I’ll-informed.

but sure you twist away

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118457163#Comment_118457163

But it's pointless. These people will find someone the wrong skin color controversial and their disapproval shouldn't be treated as something normal.

downcow

great To see the proposed ILA stalled again.

I was told many times that it would be implemented last October whether unionists liked it or not. I did say which October.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851460#Comment_118851460

So the Tory's cannot be trusted by any Irish people, shafted Irish Unionists and shafted Irish Nationalists.