Land Commission/Ownership over time

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394064#Comment_118394064

Would your great grandfather be known as the gombeen man back then?

paddysdream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394251#Comment_118394251

Never heard that expression before so no idea to be honest .

Good loser

Was the gombeen man not the shopkeeper?

Kevhog1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394386#Comment_118394386

More of a modern day loan shark is my understanding of it

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394394#Comment_118394394

Money lender, if you please.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394394#Comment_118394394

They were collecting the money for the landlord so was it. The landlord was the lender like?

Kevhog1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394679#Comment_118394679

The definition of a gombeen man was someone who loaned money at high rates.

** this isnt me calling the person whos father was a land agent this name, its me explaining my understanding of the term. No offence meant!**

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394723#Comment_118394723

Same here. I never heard of them either but David mc Williams often mentions the gombeen man. He might not be too accurate in his description.

green daries

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394748#Comment_118394748

Yes David is sketchy on the details when it comes to agriculture which IMO is a pity

Lime Tree Farm

Land annuities and the 1930s economic war. I heard of farmers taking their animals to the marts and leaving them there unsold. Farmers continued to pay, renamed as rates.

Good description here.

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/when-dev-defaulted-the-land-annuities-dispute-1926-38/

Lime Tree Farm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394064#Comment_118394064

The Rent Book you have there is a very precious piece of Irish history.

Your ancestor sounds like a very fair rent collector. Twice a year the rent was collected on Gale days.

Lime Tree Farm

On the History & Heritage - Boards.ie this morning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225279/land-commission-indexes-to-be-digitised

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400106#Comment_118400106

That's some can of worms to be opened up. Next one will be how was disadvantaged land designated.

Bog Man 1

Our Farm was originally bought by a Catholic Lawer that was educated in France because of the lack of educational facilities for Catholics as a legacy of the Penal laws . He became rich dividing up indebt estates for the british government under various land acts . He may have used insider information to know the farm was for sale. . The previous family interests had moved to other things and the farm was inherited by a family member that was exploring in Africa and he married an African woman and was killed fighting for her tribe . The Lawer rocks up at the auction and bought the farm but had to sell some to tenants and probably some land to reduce his debt . He actually borrowed some of the money in the Isle Of Wight .The big estates nearby had bid up the land and he probably paid too much for it . There was always acrimony between him and the members of the Grand Jury with them levying rates on the Townland for Malicious damages when sheds were burnt .The Fact that the Townland was Catholic did not go unnoticed and he banned the hunt until my Grandfather lifted the Ban in 1930 .The Lawer was actually married to a Protestant and she converted to Catholicism on the death of her husband and was granted the right to have a private Galvanised chapel attached to the house . His niece was my great grand Aunt and she was the last woman standing and left it to her nephew my grand father .

Our Farm was willed to my Canadian Grandfather in 1930 and my father started farming it in 1947 . My grandfather only came over here for a year and a half and returned to Canada as did the rest of the family . A distant cousin worked in the Land Commission and everytime the file came to the top of the pile he removed it and placed it at the bottom thus stopping it getting in to the hands of the Land Commission . The Land comission files were sealed because of the acrimony it would create between families BUT If you look up the Dail records you can find out a certain amount about which of your neighbours were lobbying to have farms divided up .

I was told land that never went through the land Comission or previous bodies that the owners had more rights over minerals thabn divided land .

The Encumbered estate acts and the Wyndham acts were some of the acts that enabled land division . Some of these acts were to enable the Landlords to reduce debt . Some of the Landlords used the money wisely and invested in shares in thriving British companies and became wealthy once again .

awaywithyou

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118400106#Comment_118400106

Kerry barony of Clanmaurice is mentioned there in that article.... which the area I live in.... basically a collection of villages in the hurling area of Kerry.. Causeway/Ballyduff/ballyheigue... local credit union is called clanmaurice credit union.. this time last year I was looking thru griffiths valuations and the ordnance survey site.. the name of which escapes me.. our land was owned by a Richard Oliver... he owned a lot of the land in our area.. it’s all very interesting to be fair.... I also remember from my few years in Co. Meath they f..king went mad at the very mention of the Land Commission.... ‘people coming from the west with their knitting needles taking our land’.... I always said if they were inclined to work it it wouldn’t have been taken off them... don’t know if that was true or not

alps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118393246#Comment_118393246

Which never happened in GB, so still consists of tenanted estates to a large extent. (Although you do come across pockets of owned 100/200 acre farms...if a similar project happened regionally)

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394239#Comment_118394239

Not land commission related but there is an old fella not to far from me who owns at least two big farms of land, plus a lot of other random valuable fields around the place. His father acquired them.

The father never worked the land himself though. He was a civil servant who was apparently responsible for collecting rates from farmers in the area ......... and somehow came to own a lot of land he was collecting rates on............. their "home place" is a fine big farm that was owned by an elderly bachelor farmer who was fond of the drink. That farm was transferred over to the rates collecting father piece by piece over a couple of decades. My grandfather always maintained that the rates collector basically took it from him by paying a few very small debts for the bachelor. I didn't think that that was plausible but then I looked into it one time and I think there was a mechanism whereby the rates collector would forward the rates to the government and he would then have power to seize property to satisfy the debt to him, and charge interest and costs etc. It wasn't quite clear though. But there could have been an element of truth in what my grandfather used to say.

It could of course be the case that a civil service wage would allow you to accrue 400-500 acres of very good land back in the day. But make of that what you will.

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118404785#Comment_118404785

Apparently it was common if land was being neglected neighbours could petition to get land taken off man like above and divided. Know of someone near me whose relatives got wind of something and transferred land into a different name just in time to avoid this.

kk.man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118404785#Comment_118404785

It's true alright...my father knew of a fella who actually sat on 'the commission' and helped his friends (not small holders) and himself (well to do farmer) to valuable land.

maestroamado

i

maestroamado

MIKEKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394239#Comment_118394239

Agree 100%. Last time land was given out in this area was early 1970. A lot of small farmers were interviewed, went to a man that in a prevoious divide got land, never worked it. Never worked the new place. Sold some of it eventually

Lime Tree Farm

will ye keep ye'er powder dry, or we will never get to see the files in our lifetime.

MIKEKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118407119#Comment_118407119

Files won't make any difference, damage was done long ago

Lime Tree Farm

I've just had a look at our own Land Commission one. The local landlords list of tenants, their leased acreage and rental costs was drawn up between 1924-27 and published in 1929.

The first folio for the home farm was received on 23 Oct 1930, stating annuity to be paid no less than two months from due dates. It doesn't state the annuity amount, but looks as if it was based on the previous rent.

kk.man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118407054#Comment_118407054

Zimbabwean division .. give the landless a go and see what happens.

White Clover

How much, for how long and to who did you pay if you received land from the Land Commission? Was it a flat rate per acre ? Did it depend on the quality of the land?

Sorry for all the questions! It's a topic that always interested me. I just know of one farm that was divided, a few neighbours farming it now.

Dinzee Conlee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118408237#Comment_118408237

Yeah, it’s not something I am familiar with either, but also interested in…

The only story I know of the land commission was there was a farm local to where I am now, was given to a family from far enough away - the family were from close to where my people were from originally…

The way I heard the story they were deserving enough of it in that they had no land or not much land, and they farmed it well afterwards.

Anyways, being from the same area one of my crowd called down to them one evening, just to introduce himself. And when he went to the door, they were afraid to answer it, he said they sounded scared enough in behind it, the poor devils… when he explained who he was, they had great welcome.

Turns out there was local resentment from some neighbouring farmers, who felt they should have got it. So I think they had it tough enough for a while when they came first… 🙁

Would imagine there was a bit of this everywhere…

Tileman

I know my grandad got one small field 3 acres from the land commission. Apparently he did didn’t really want it according to my dad as he felt there was A stigma to receiving it. However when he asked who would get it if f he he didn’t he decided to sign on the dotted line. Easy to say looking back but if i was there I would be askin go was there anything else going. Plenty of others around here got allot more and jumped at it.

Really interesting topic and the files will be interesting

Wildly Boaring

My father's family came up from the south west in the 60s and got about 40 acres.

Lot of Land Commission farms in south Meath. Kilbride, Dunsaughlin, Skryne, Kentstown, Senchelstown. Kinda straight up the middle of the county. None really in north Meath that I'd know of.

All mainly still farmed by those families (although the 60s not that long ago)

Not something dad really goes into much. But his older brother was bullied enough to drop out of school and there were plenty negative attitudes originally.

Lot of these families and there next generations contributed to Meath football in the 80s and 90s eg Colm O Rourke probably land commission for example.

No real chance of nepotism for these lot. Very poor farmers from the middle of nowhere. Lot of them were FF families alright. Definitely were after getting the farms.