Was Muammar Gaddafi a hero or a villain?

Harryd225

I believe he was a hero, before and during the NATO led campaign western media tried to portray him as a monster to promote and justify the war against him by making endless ridiculous claims that he was using mass rape as a weapon of war and that he supplies his troops with Viagra so they are able to keep up with all the rapes, unfortunately the gullible public fell for all of this and war cheering on the US and UK to get in there and civilise Libya.

Fair play to Amnesty International who ran their own investigations and claimed none of it was true apart from maybe some isolated acts by individuals.

Gaddafi led one of the most prosperous countries in Africa with one of if not the highest standard of living in Africa, he was a revolutionary and his memory will not be forgotten.

Human rights organisations have cast doubt on claims of mass rape and other abuses perpetrated by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, which have been widely used to justify Nato's war in Libya.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/amnesty-questions-claim-that-gaddafi-ordered-rape-as-weapon-of-war-2302037.html%3famp

completedit

More than likely a scumbag but had his good sides. Libya was once a country I'd have visited(I was meant to spend a summer there in 2006) whereas today I wouldn't go near it.

The way the west flip flopped on their view on him is so eye-opening.

He liked to visit schools and handpick young girls and boys who would have to privilege to serve as his personal sex slaves in his "sex dungeon" so yeah....

villain

Victims and witnesses state in the documentary that Gadhafi would choose his targets on visits to schools or colleges, patting on the head those who caught his eye.

His security officials would then take the victim to one of several specially designed suites of rooms, where they would be abused and raped by the dictator. In one such suite at Tripoli University, there is a fully-equipped gynecological examination room, where victims were tested for sexually transmitted diseases before being sexually abused.

"Some were only 14," recalled one teacher at a Tripoli school. "They would simply take the girl they wanted. They had no conscience, no morals, not an iota of mercy, even though she was a mere child."

Some of the girls were held for years, while others were dumped with appalling injuries.

"One just disappeared and they never found her again, despite her father and brothers searching for her. Another was found three months later, cut, raped and lying in the middle of a park. She had been left for dead."

https://www.haaretz.com/gadhafi-s-crimes-revealed-1.5315653

Atlantic Dawn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409750#Comment_118409750

Not a million miles away from something currently in the news.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409750#Comment_118409750

Do you really believe that? You seriously believe it? I thought most people would have realised by now that that along with the claims of mass rape by his troops which were false and lacked any evidence, it was merely used as propaganda to justify the war.

bnt

If you failed to remain on his good side, you could end up in Abu Salim Prison. Not a very nice place.

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225604/was-muammar-gaddafi-a-hero-or-a-villain

He was a great leader.

Mad_maxx

its all relative , compared to the kind of ghouls who led and lead much of the arab world and Africa , He wasnt so bad

he certainly should not have been ousted

cnocbui

All dictators are really incredibly nice people who are just misunderstood by the surviving press.

techman1

I think if NATO knew then what they know now and the repurcussions from toppling Gadaffi they would have left him in place. Gadaffi was acting as the european border force stopping migrants using Libya as a staging post to get into Europe. Millions have now used this route into Europe . These migrants are now causing big problems now between France and UK the bedrock of NATO. France is basically trying to dump its migrant problem onto the UK. Gadaffi would have been much cheaper than 6 billion euros the EU had to pay Turkey in order to stop them allowing migrants cross into Greece.

Also Libya was a major oil and gas exporter under Gadaffi, now it is a failed state and that oil production is badly needed by Europe in order to control inflation and reduce its dependance on Mr Putins oil and gas.

Danzy

At one stage he confiscated all Bank accounts that held more than a months average wage.

Killing of people was random and often without reason and constant.

He did some good things, he helped Ireland when it needed it, but everything was secondary to his extreme narcissism and desire for control.

His evil outweighed the good things significantly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409764#Comment_118409764

"that" has absolutely nothing to do with his troops so please don't try to conflate something completely irrelevant to my point

so the witnesses in the BBC doc were just made up?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3518600/

along with the personal gyno suite that he had where his victims were examined for std's and unwanted pregnancies aborted?

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409791#Comment_118409791

all true but compared to the rules of Saudi Arabia etc , a civilised forward thinking visionary

This has been documented since the 1990's - book originally published in 1999

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17290920-gaddafi-s-harem

In 2011, Annick Cojean, senior reporter at Le Monde and special correspondent for Tripoli, wrote a shock article, titled 'Gaddafi's sexual slave', which told the story of Soraya, a twenty-two-year old Libyan woman who had been kidnapped and held captive since the age of 15. Soraya was a schoolgirl in the coastal town of Sirte, when she was given the honour of presenting a bouquet of flowers to Colonel Gaddafi, the Guide, on a visit he was making the following week. This one meeting - a presentation of flowers, a pat on the head from Gaddafi - changed Soraya's life forever. Soon afterwards, she was summoned to Bab al-Azizia, Gaddafi's palatial compound near Tripoli, where she joined a number of young women who were violently abused, raped and degraded by Gaddafi.

In 2012, Cojean returned to Libya to continue her investigation. Her book, Gaddafi's Harem, takes Soraya as its starting point to recount the fates of so many other women. She has gone to remarkable lengths - rape is the highest taboo in Libya - to collect these women's stories. Heartwrenchingly tragic but ultimately redemptive, Soraya's story is the first of many that are just now beginning to be heard.

In Gaddafi's Harem, Le Monde special correspondent Annick Cojean gives a voice to Soraya's story, and supplements her investigation into Gaddafi's abuses of power through interviews with other women who were abused by Gaddafi, and those who were involved with his regime, including a driver who ferried women to the compound, and Gaddafi's former Chief of Security.

Gaddafi's Harem is an astonishing portrait of the essence of dictatorship: how power gone unchecked can wreak havoc on the most intensely personal level, as well as a document of great significance to the new Libya

mikethecop

i see the shinnerbot are trying to reduce the crimes of former ally and rouge state

hardly trying to divert from the recent links to putins boys ??

lol

Jequ0n

Neither hero nor villain. He simply did what many would have done had they had the same opportunity.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409802#Comment_118409802

In some ways he was but he was incredibly controlling and murderous to his own people as well.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409872#Comment_118409872

At some stage he was an ally. Enemy and ally again of every country in the West, including Ireland.

Didn't his own people torture and string him up... or was that Western propaganda also?

What is debatable is whether he was the lesser evil.

Hangdogroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409764#Comment_118409764

What reputable source are you getting your info on him from?

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409764#Comment_118409764

The ICC in the Hague must have made a mistake issuing arrest warrants for him .

Freddie Mcinerney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409792#Comment_118409792

Pence gay friend did alternating sex therapy.

Freddie Mcinerney

Did he encourage the chefs in Libya to make pasta dishes spicy? Whoever did is great in my book.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409965#Comment_118409965

Certain individuals can't comprehend it's possible to be critical of the West and critical of opposing dictators, it's not mutually exclusive. That's often the "source" of this.

Anyway these threads are usually just excuses to bash the same old basket of countries

LeBash

I suppose a better question, is Libya/Europe/the world better off since he was killed.

I think the answer is no, it's not.

If left alone, the people themselves would eventually have overthrown him if they felt he was bad enough. Plus, I dont think he had a super long lifespan and could have been replaced by a more moderate leader.

Comparing the world to European standards doesn't work. We are super lucky the way we have things. Gaddafi isn't even close to the worst leader in the North of Africa.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410067#Comment_118410067

The people would have overthrown him?

Not so sure, they haven't overthrown Maduro, Assad, Jong Un, Lukashenko, the Myanmar Junta and any number of unpleasant leaders. Not saying intervention is the answer at all, but it's wrong to assume people can and will overthrow these people.

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409965#Comment_118409965

The sf/ira apologist weekly gazette.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409897#Comment_118409897

I don't think one cancels out the other - (might tarnish a reputation though )

He may have done many heroic things -and be a total bastard -

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410221#Comment_118410221

He may have done things that seemed heroic, but were likely self serving and therefore not heroic. Same can be said for Hitler, Mao or Stalin.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410243#Comment_118410243

That applies to most people, not just dictators. It’s human nature

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410545#Comment_118410545

So... not heroic... which is the topic of the thread.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410554#Comment_118410554

But also not villain, which is likewise topic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410566#Comment_118410566

Which of Gadaffi, Hitler, Mao or Stallin weren't villains? aside from degree...

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410583#Comment_118410583

You suggested these people as a comparison, I simply pointed out that most people are self serving. If you are happy to call large parts of society villains then go ahead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410600#Comment_118410600

No, I'm not...you're the one that brought in the general public.

I said that some of the things Gaddafi did that some might consider heroic were only self serving. But, he was a villain because he was a brute, and a serial rapist (sounds sociopathic to me) and ultimately his own people tortured and killed him. At no time do I think Gaddafi acted heroically, contrary to his own interests.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410640#Comment_118410640

Ah I see.

I agree that there is nothing heroic about him, but I also don’t see him as a villain.

Richard Hillman

Liberal democracy isn't for every country. There are places where it just doesn't work.

People ultimately want safety and stability, with the ability to earn money. Libya was safe, stable and reasonably prosperous under Gadaffi. He kept the show on the road. The same with Saddam, Assad, Putin etc. They hold the country together.

You can't just roll a Tony Blair or Leo Varadkar into these places otherwise they would be pissed all over. Strong, masculine leaders is what the people of these respective countries want.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410648#Comment_118410648

Okay.

But, not sure what your definition of villain is. Do you think his brutality of his own people was untrue or if true doesn't make him a villain.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410679#Comment_118410679

To me it is simply a word that is used to label someone whose actions are deemed immoral. He didn’t do anything to me so I can’t see any reason to call him anything.

At least he went out on a high

Colonel Gaddafi 'killed by bayonet stab to the anus'

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaddafi-killed-bayonet-stab-anus-libya-395224

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410751#Comment_118410751

And these are the so called ''freedom fighters'' the UK and US were supporting.

They simply backed a minority group of hard-line extremists and used them as proxy to overthrow Gaddafi.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410640#Comment_118410640

''his own people killed him'' a group of hard-line extremists that were given support and backing by the UK.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410777#Comment_118410777

It was a fitting end for a tyrannical rapist murdering arsehole who ruled purely by fear and terror for most of his reign -

The fact that he gave a few tonnes of semtex to the 'ra doesn't make him a hero to me.

At one point he just decided to murder and completely disappear over 1,000 political prisoners

How could jorry adams et al reconcile the hyprocrisy of taking a load of money, guns and explosives off a guy that murders en masse his own political opponents with impunity as the oppressor when they were self-styling themselves as the very same vs the British oppressor?!

(or maybe it doesn't matter a jot - it was all "grand" - doesn't matter a jot if you're the oppressor or the plucky terrorist underdog!)

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2011/10/21/libya-survivor-describes-1996-prison-massacre

https://www.hrw.org/news/2006/06/27/libya-june-1996-killings-abu-salim-prison

Freddie Mcinerney

Was he okay if a non Muslim painted pictures of Allah?

Markcheese

I think the hero label is often down to timing - you take power - you do some amazing stuff and then tragically die before you get time to be considered a despot or settle in to nepotism , or just conservative old age -

Lenin was often considered a hero while Stalin was a mass murderer -

Moa would be all things to everyone if he'd shuffled off before the great leap forward - Bertie Ahern would have been the greatest thing since bread came sliced if he'd bowed out a few years earlier ( nearly got away with it )

Freddie Mcinerney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410822#Comment_118410822

The Feckhim Manure jersey would still be protrayed.

Harryd225

The Daily Times of Nigeria for instance stated that while undeniably a dictator, Gaddafi was the most benevolent in a region that only knew dictatorship, and that he was "a great man that looked out for his people and made them the envy of all of Africa". The Nigerian newspaper also reported that while many Libyans and Africans would mourn Gaddafi, this would be ignored by Western media and that as such it would take 50 years before historians decided whether he was "martyr or villain".

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409792#Comment_118409792

I don't believe the story about Gaddafi and his secret sex dungeon where kept hundreds of young girls captive for the purpose of ''sexual torture'' I just don't believe it.

You may say well the BBC said it themselves well the word of the BBC doesn't mean much to me, just like all the claims of ''mass rape'' being ordered by Gaddafi and that he would give his troops Viagra so they could ''keep up'' with all the rape, the BBC has told so many lies recently I barely believe the football results off them any more.

I'm not saying that western media are completely making these claims up, what I'm saying is that what they generally do is they will take the information which suits their agenda most and report on that information as if it is fact with little to no evidence , while at the same time any claims that don't suit the agenda are strongly scrutinised and tested before they are given any credibility.

corks finest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225604/was-muammar-gaddafi-a-hero-or-a-villain

Hero to most at one time much like Fidel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410912#Comment_118410912

As I already showed, there is absolutely no need to believe the bbc on this - as I posted a French investigative journalist literally wrote the book on it!

Soraya was just fifteen, a schoolgirl in the Libyan coastal town of Sirte, when she was given the honor of presenting a bouquet of flowers to Colonel Gaddafi on a visit he made to her school. This one meeting—a presentation of flowers, a pat on the head from Gaddafi—changed Soraya’s life forever. Soon, she was summoned to Bab al-Azizia, Gaddafi’s palatial compound near Tripoli, where she joined a group of young women who were raped and humiliated by Gaddafi, forced to watch pornography, drink alcohol, and entertain Libya’s debauched elite, along with the foreign dignitaries who turned a blind eye to the most monstrous aspects of Gaddafi’s regime. 

Annick Cojean gives Soraya a voice, and adds to her story through interviews with other women who were abused by Gaddafi, as well as with people in his administration, including a driver who ferried women to and from the Bab al-Azizia compound, and Gaddafi’s former chief of security.

https://frenchculture.org/books-and-ideas/recently-published/1131-gaddafis-harem

He done nuffink ta me, so he's cushty in my book.

Or that, it's all lies, he was a peace loving Patsy.

Bizarre thinking.