Was Muammar Gaddafi a hero or a villain?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410912#Comment_118410912

So maybe just a few little rapes then? OK.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410947#Comment_118410947

A French journalist wrote a book on it? Well that settles it then.

The only thing worth considering re Gadaffi is whether what replaced him is worse.

No way a hero.

No way a benevolent dictator.

No way not a stain on humanity.

But, better the devil you know... possibly was.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410975#Comment_118410975

Well in fairness a book with multiple witness testimonies completely sort of trumps your blanket "I don't believe it" backed up by precisely zero evidence of any kind.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410848#Comment_118410848

A Nigerian paper said so, that settles it.

Jequ0n

Bizarre thinking indeed. Bemoaning injustices that never affected anyone here.

Not like the civil wars that follow each deposed dictator ever brought stability.

corks finest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410975#Comment_118410975

Well that’s gospel so🙄

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410848#Comment_118410848

Used artillery on protestors in his own country , engaged in chemical warfare against Chad , his embassy in London opened fire on protestors killing an unarmed policewoman.

Benevolent indeed.

Montage of Feck

He started out as an idealistic and rather charismatic revolutionary but ended up a dead eyed degenerate despot. A perfect example of how power corrupts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411065#Comment_118411065

The definition of villainy has nothing to do with personal experience. I can't imagine Hitler did anything to you. Is he not a villain?

Separately, just because someone/something worse followed doesn't make Gadaffi any less a candidate for being a villain.

If you feel something gripped in your hand, that's likely the handle of a shovel... just put it down.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411481#Comment_118411481

The definition of villainy seems to be largely based on Disney films or bible stories.

I am by no means arguing the man was a hero, but he was able to control his region without civil war and the likes. There are always some losses, no matter what method is chosen.

I’m ok with people having a different opinion, but I am happy to keep mine.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410672#Comment_118410672

What we consider universal human rights, Democracy, workers rights etc are specifically from and of the European tradition, they were just pushed on the world in the last century.

There is much of the world where such things are viewed as deeply wrong and that push back is growing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411661#Comment_118411661

Always some losses? What deliberate losses in human is, say, Micheál Martin liable for?

It's not that you can't have a different opinion to me - If someone wishes to believe the world is flat for example - I can accept they believe this, but we are on a discussion forum, so hoping it's up for continued discussion.

I'm 100% certain I wasn't the first to use the word villain. Would you prefer despot? Can you form the opinion that Gadaffi (or anyone) was a bad person even though he never personally harmed you directly?

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411957#Comment_118411957

Oh the OP picked the term for the thread, I wasn’t claiming you had chosen it.

I don’t think I’d ever label someone a bad person, but there are definitely behaviours that I abhor. Maybe you and I just have different ideas of what is acceptable and what is not.

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411661#Comment_118411661

Col Gadaffi was no "Hero" in the Western sense of the word,which now sees people described as such for merely coming to work in the snow or similar.

Yet,it is beyond contradiction that through His determination and vision alone He provided more ACTUAL improvement in living standards to his people than any other leader in the region ever has,or given current events ,will ever do.

I repeatedly keep returning to the Great Man Made River project,and more importantly the thinking behind it.

You will struggle anywhere today,to find leaders even capable of thinking in the way he did for "his" Libya" and his belief in needing to ensure Libya became self sufficient and dominant in the region.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/trouble-ahead-gaddafis-great-man-made-river

The idea behind the GMR – first mooted in the 1950s – was simple on paper, highly complex in reality.

Libya is one of the driest countries on earth, with more than 90 percent of its land desert. But deep under the sand in the south of the country is what’s known as the Nubian Sandstone Aquifer System – the world’s largest aquifer - a vast fresh water lake covering an area of more than two million square kilometres.

Boasting that the GMR would make the “desert as green as the flag of the Libyan Jamahiriya,” Gaddafi embarked on the giant scheme in 1983, drilling down to tap the aquifer’s abundant waters.

We,in a country that still cannot manage to provide large sectors of it's population with clean,potable water,can only stand back agog at the thought processes Gadaffi exhibited in the earliest stages of the GMMR project.

What most likely did for Gadaffi,was not the largely manageable tribal dissent common in these parts,but his determination to fully fund the project without ANY Western Financial Aid....that,in the minds of the hugely important Merchant Bankers of our slick Western World represented heresy.

The GMR was funded almost entirely out of Libyan oil sales funds: though a substantial amount of equipment was imported – particularly from South Korea during the initial phases of the project – the hundreds of thousands of pipes needed for the scheme were all manufactured in Libya.

And so it came to pass that the "Western Alliance" doffing it's cap to the Rotshchild's and their ilk made sure that the GMMR project would stall or collapse....Thank's lads 👍️

Even more of a reason (If any were thought necessary) was Gadaffi's view that Africa required control of it's own Telecommunications systems,and He was fully prepared to take that concept forward...which may well have signed his own death warrant.

https://www.pambazuka.org/human-security/lies-behind-wests-war-libya

The above links to a long article which most will probably not read through,but it is worth spending a few minutes acquaintance with,even if you don't agree with the accepted wisdom that Gadaffi was Mad,Bad & Sad.

On another note,it is good to see Tony Blair finally getting recognition for his labours...Arise,Sir Tony... 😁

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118412274#Comment_118412274

so he tried to sort out a water project but how many young girls in total did he rape (and destroy their lives) over his 40 year reign?

he certainly also murdered thousands of his own people e.g. the Abu Salim prison prison massacre in 1996 accounted for 1,200 alone

he was still a despot.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118412430#Comment_118412430

All of what you say is highly debatable and probably never even happened, although the claims of the prison massacre is far more likely to be true than the hundreds of young girls Gaddafi allegedly kept chained up in his sex dungeon, the evidence for the alleged prison massacre is scarce to say the least.

Human Rights Watch stated in a report that they were unable to independently verify the allegations of a massacre. The claims that were investigated by Human Rights Watch are based on the testimony of a single former inmate, Hussein Al Shafa’i, who stated that he did not witness a prisoner being killed: "I could not see the dead prisoners who were shot.''

The number of people killed in the alleged massacre is almost certainly nowhere near the number if the massacre actually did take place.

Gaddafi was a hate figure for the west so any negative stories on him (especially during and leading up to the war) would have been reported on and given credibility by the west as long as it suited the agenda, but if it didn't suit the agenda then they would have to fact check it and rigorously vet the claims to make sure they were true before they would report on it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410912#Comment_118410912

'I don't believe the story about Gaddafi and his secret sex dungeon where kept hundreds of young girls captive for the purpose of ''sexual torture'' I just don't believe it.'

Well clearly you're the type of person to just decide things in your own head, despite evidence to the contrary.

corks finest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411403#Comment_118411403

Know look at FG/ FF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118412547#Comment_118412547

Gadaffi had a witnessed penchant for raping young girls.

Over a 40 year reign he certainly could rape as many as he wanted as a despot with absolute power.

The exact number will never be known - how many rapes of young teenage girls is "bad" - 100, 200, 10, 20?

A French reporter has published a book of testimonies from women forced into former Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi’s harem. France 24 interviewed the author about the ordeals the women endured and the problems they face in a post-Gaddafi Libya.

Young and beautiful, they were kidnapped, beaten, humiliated and raped by former Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.

Gaddafi had a harem of women kept in the basement of his residence, in little rooms or apartments. These women, obligated to appear before him in their underwear, could be called at any time of day or night. They were raped, beaten, subjected to the worst kinds of sexual humiliation. For Gaddafi, rape was a weapon … a way of dominating others -- women, obviously, because it was easy, but also men, by possessing their wives and daughters.

https://www.france24.com/en/20120920-muammar-gaddafi-rape-weapon-libya-annick-cojean-le-monde-sexual-slavery-harem-abuse-women

The  Abu Salim prison massacre happened and the families of the many disappeared who were never seen again are testament to that.

But Gadhafi actually acknowledged it himself in a speech ffs

The seeds of Gadhafi’s eventual undoing were sown one day in June 1996 when, according to international human rights organizations, regime forces killed up to 1,200 prisoners inside Abu Salim in just a few hours. The full story of what happened that day, including to the bodies, has yet to be established. In late 2011, rumors circulated of a mass grave within the Abu Salim compound, but until now the remains have not been found. A key Gadhafi aide detained after the regime’s fall claimed that the corpses were thrown into a pit dug inside the prison perimeter. He said acid was poured over before the pit was refilled and sealed with asphalt.

It took almost a decade before the Gadhafi regime publicly acknowledged that killings had taken place. Throughout that time, the families of the dead continued to send provisions to loved ones they believed to be alive. After the regime’s admission – Gadhafi himself referred to the killings in a televised speech in 2004 – relatives of the slain spent the next years demanding justice. It was the arrest in Benghazi in February 2011 of Fathi Terbil, a lawyer for these families whose own brother had been killed in the massacre, that sparked demonstrations that later tipped into an armed uprising.

https://newlinesmag.com/essays/a-notorious-prison-and-libyas-war-of-memory/

Montage of Feck

Nah, his fate was sealed when he disrespected the all mighty dollar.

Reported, cos apparently rape is cool. Good luck op.

Esel

You know when you click into a thread, see who the OP is and immediately click the back button? That happened here.

A difficult one....was no saint and unquestionably corrupt...but libya most defineltly thrived under his rule and those involved in his removal need to own up and apologise for what they have caused to that country......

they used the backdrop of the arab spring protests to remove an old foe in what on surface looked like yet another oil war,but hadnt the stomach to see through another ground invasion/transfer to democracy...leaving us with the perfect synonym for what the british and yanks have brought to the middle east since 9/11

Im old enough to remember,the newly knighted,tony blair meeting and palling up with him in a tent,before arranging libyan dissidents kidnap and deportation (with families) to libya......

he undoubtfully done great things to help irish nationlists in the north,when they were on their knees,desperate for help and helped turn the tide during troubles...pretty sure the claudia arms orginated there too-for a waterford connection😅........(ultimaely double crossed ira years later,but this is almost unknown)

.but someone who died with 100s of millions in their bank,while others go poor and hungry under their rule is nothing other than a despot

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118413612#Comment_118413612

How did you manage to squeeze in this post then?

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118413870#Comment_118413870

Clicked back in just to post.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118413446#Comment_118413446

This.

If he sucked up to the West he'd be still in power, irrespective of how murdery he got.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118412600#Comment_118412600

i must disagree, people like that usually wait to be told the party line then fire up as part of the on line army, they arent the only one who haven't gone away you know . itll be pro russia soon enough ....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118412600#Comment_118412600

Would it not concern yous,theres no actual physical evidence to support this

Maybe it did,maybe it didnt....whole thing reads like a poorly worded porno....

brought to you by same people whom sold the weapons of mass destruction in iraq....id need much more proof,than the word of the british/yanks tbh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118415557#Comment_118415557

Does sucking up to the West include not orchestrating the blowing up of the PanAm flight over lockerbie?

Hoop66

Worked in Libya on and off for 3 years or so in the 90s. Mainly in software engineering for an energy company.

Most, if not all, of the people I worked with were publicly praising of MAG and quite the opposite in private. A lot of fear expressed, many had relatives that had 'disappeared', and had so learned to keep their opinions very quiet. Me being a westerner was perhaps seen as a 'safe space'

From my own perspective, the country certainly had more going on in the way of public projects for the improvements of the people's lot than anywhere else I was at the time - Egypt/Oman/Jordan. A huge amount of building of roads, public transport infrastructure etc. going on. But again a lot of the people I spoke with for work were very keen to see if I could help them, quietly, get a job in the UK.

It seems that there are those who are happy to gloss over the fact that he murdered many 1000s of his own citizens because he stuck 2 fingers up to the yanks.

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118415932#Comment_118415932

Gaddafi was bit like a rockstar in the mold of Bowie or Bono in that he went through several stylistic persona changes.

Before the fall of communism he was a secular left wing revolutionary portraying himself as a humble colonel and very much against the west. He later changed tack when the political wind changed into an almost messianic figure who was going to unite Africa.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118423167#Comment_118423167

Before 2011, Libya had achieved economic independence, with its own water, its own food, its own oil, its own money and it's own state owned bank, education and medical treatment were free and having a home was considered a human right.

But of course that was before US-NATO forces bombed the irrigation system and wreaked havoc on the country which had risen under Gaddafi from one of the poorest of countries to the richest in Africa but since the UK and US embarked on a great ''humanitarian mission'' it's now back to being one of the poorest and war torn countries in Africa again.

Harryd225

In 2009, Colonel Gaddafi, then President of the African Union, suggested to the States of the African continent to switch to a new currency, independent of the American dollar: the gold dinar.

The objective of this new currency was to divert oil revenues towards state-controlled funds rather than American banks. In other words, to stop using the dollar for oil transactions. Countries such as Nigeria, Tunisia, Egypt and Angola were ready to change their currencies. Unfortunately in March 2011, the NATO-led coalition began a military intervention in Libya in the name of freedom…. Which conveniently stopped any of this from happening.

This information was discovered through Hillary Clinton’s electronic mailbox that were leaked, one of the 3000 emails showed NATO’s willingness to overthrow Gaddafi’s government. NATO mainly wanted to to neutralize the African gold currency supported by Libyan oil reserves.

The propaganda started coming through around 2009 to build support and justification for the war.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118423338#Comment_118423338

I dont think he had the political skills/methodology to unite africa as he wished tbh

What will work in libya,wont in tanzania and vice versa,and the yanks would have brought the whole thing crumbling down into civil wars in richer countries by arming one side etc....

an soviet union type effort simply wouldnt work on a whole continent,it only worked in russia for so long as the red army saved millions from certain death under nazis,and were able to drive on then with patrioitic support built on it for decades alongside relatively rapid rise in living standreds/economy

An EU type effort would need start small and build from.there (same as eec) and would be beset by difficulties/historic distrust for a generation (same as the eu/eec btw),but there is no reason it wouldnt succeed either

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118423397#Comment_118423397

He already had multiple countries on board with the new currency like Nigeria, Tunisia, Egypt and Angola which were all ready to change their currencies and that was before it even begun (which it never did cause he was killed) if it was successful the rest of Africa would have followed.

He was the head of the African Union, I'm not saying Africa could even be united but if anyone could have done it it would have been Gaddafi.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118423481#Comment_118423481

He couldnt unite his own country ffs🤣

Its an interesting prospect,i must read up further upon it.....but such a grouping would been interesting,

but ultimatley and regretably,a monetary union requires massive political union to stay stable,otherwise yanks would work to undermine it,or muscle in and drive corruption to line own pockets......

which is why the ecb is distrusted in many countries,its an unelected body deciding monetary policy for a continent (with diastorus effect as shown during last recession)....all would take is outside political agitation/propaganda and a well timed assination of an offial,would breed distrust and either revenge would ensue or several countries would withdraw

Im not saying its stupid idea,its likely a very meritable one for africa infact,

but your dealing with greatest shower of war mongering gowls in uk/usa this century than anyone else since ww2 and they would work to wreak it

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421927#Comment_118421927

Well I'm pretty sure Africans looking for a job in the UK isn't exclusive to Libya ffs but I'm pretty sure in the 90s people were far happier in Libya than the vast majority of African countries and certainly North Africa.

Can't argue with anything you said except for that as it's all based on your personal experience/opinion while you were there.

Montage of Feck

The Arab spring, what a **** show that turned out to be! Once the **** hit the fan the keyboard warriors were quick to disappear leaving the door open for the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamic state.

Sandor Clegane

Whether he was a hero or villain, or even simply good or bad, is not a question I think we should ask be asking ourselves, what we should be concerning ourselves with is what is the alternative? In these situations you always have to ask that question, he may be bad but was he right for his respective country? I think so, the likes of Libya and Iraq are not Ireland or any other western nation, they play by a different set of rules and don't take to how we in the West do things, going in and shooting some democracy into these countries doesn't work, its a disaster.

The likes of Gaddafi and even Saddam had control and were able to maintain it, which is the total opposite to the current situation, Libya was by all accounts pretty decent under him for most people plus Gaddafi was no threat to the West, it made no sense removing him or wanting him gone, at least not if stability was your main concern.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118424667#Comment_118424667

I wouldn't say he was no threat to the west, he planned to launch the gold dinar project bringing a new currency to Africa that would free the continent from economic bondage under the dollar, and many other major African governments like Nigeria were ready to support him in this project, it was both an African dream and a nightmare for the West’s financial system.

Is this the twilight zone ?

Driving gloves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409790#Comment_118409790

The UK, US and Israel did it deliberately to try and splinter the EU.

Same as all these “terrorist attacks” that never actually happened.

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436685#Comment_118436685

Well I did see a gremlin outside the window.