Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821727#Comment_118821727

In what way is not allowing biological men compete against women discrimination?? That is an utterly ludicrous argument.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821822#Comment_118821822

No sport bans transgender athletes, they merely only allow them compete in the category of their biological sex. It's like saying that a homosexual man is banned from competing in a female race and trying to make a fuss out of it.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822043#Comment_118822043

It’s perfectly reasonable to posit lots of things, using science to address these hypotheses is precisely what it’s used for, but when there is insufficient evidence to support a hypothesis, claiming that there is evidence that not only supports the hypothesis, but that the evidence is so overwhelming that it swamps everything else, is taking liberties in order to support policies which it was already argued were necessary to maintain fairness in women’s sports. Same arguments are still being made based upon ethnicity too, but those kinds of advantages among athletes are overlooked, whereas the idea of portraying transgender athletes as a threat to women is a much easier bogeyman to sell to the public.

I don’t know that it’s true most trans people are on hormones these days either tbh as the waiting lists for just for diagnosis through the NHS run into thousands, just in the UK alone, and those are only the people who are willing to be diagnosed (some people aren’t only self-diagnosing, they’re self-medicating with hormones bought online). No idea how many people among the population in any country could actually be transgender, but it’s a fair assumption to suggest that there are more people who are transgender in some countries than others, and with cultural variations and values and so on, they may not even recognise or acknowledge the concept of gender or what it means to be transgender from a Western perspective.

In India for example, the concept existed for millennia in literature and religion, but it was only in recent times that the idea of people who don’t fit in with traditional ideas about the roles of men and women in society, being recognised in law and given protection, became a national issue, and a Supreme Court decision meant the introduction of similar legislation to Ireland… sort of -

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/12/04/784398783/india-just-passed-a-trans-rights-bill-why-are-trans-activists-protesting-it?t=1648025183368

https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/12/05/indias-transgender-rights-law-isnt-worth-celebrating

You can see now why the IOC were keen to wash their hands of any association with having to determine an actual policy, and instead chose to issue guidelines instead to national organisations and federations, let them look like they’re not being inclusive and fluffy and all the rest of it.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822179#Comment_118822179

I’m not too sure but what is your opinion on Ireland’s Gender Recognition Act 2015 and if it could be discrimination? Honestly I don’t know the answer so interested in what you think?

Podge_irl

I don't need to be told how science works. All evidence suggests something is true for the population at large, your proposition is that it is different for a particular subset. That is the claim that needs the evidence, not the other way around.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822315#Comment_118822315

Pretty much all of these laws have carve-outs to specifically allow same-sex discrimination where it is necessary, but they don't generally enumerate the situations so it would be ultimately up to a court to decide.

Bannasidhe

Would anyone on the segregate sports by biology like to comment on trans men?

Do we, or do we not, insist that a trans man who is taking testosterone competes against women in all sports?

I would really like to know how people propose to fit that square into the "protecting women's sports" circle.

Everyone would be happy to see Pat Manuel in the ring against a women because 'biology'?

https://olympics.com/en/news/transgender-boxer-pat-manuel-makes-history-with-first-professional-win

And before anyone asks I reckon if a woman wants to fight Manuel that's her decision. I have no ideological position on it either way.

But if people are concerned about the damage a person with a bulked up by testosterone body would do in a competitive fight with a woman then surly this would be uncomfortable, to say the least, to watch?

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822315#Comment_118822315

Someone's biological sex has nothing to do with their gender. Apparently.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822669#Comment_118822669

No, they should participate with men as they have no inherent advantage (though with the understanding that they themselves are likely taking risks) - quite obviously someone taking testosterone should not be competing against women as it is essentially doping. Its banned for a reason. It's not that complicated.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822669#Comment_118822669

There are already rules regarding PEDs. It would be up to the biological woman if she wanted to compete in the sport or take performing enhancing drugs which would block her from competing. People make these choices daily. Do I want to train, or do i want to drink? Do I want to move up a level or stay where I am? etc.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822711#Comment_118822711

But that is not insisting sport is segregated according to biology which is what many many posters here are saying is the way it should be.

Your stance seems to be (and I may be misunderstanding so please correct me if I am) that medically transitioned transgender men may compete against biological men as the hormones they take have leveled the playing field enough for it to be fair.

But medically transitioned women may not compete against biological women as supressing the same hormones does not level the playing enough.

Only in women's sport should the biology rules apply?

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822723#Comment_118822723

I'm not sure what question you are answering tbh. It's not the one I asked.

I asked if people who believe sport should be segregated according to biology think it is therefore right, proper, and fair that medically transitioned men compete against women.

IF gender cannot be changed that means a transgender man is a woman...

bunderoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822734#Comment_118822734

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118816159#Comment_118816159

Would you prefer that Females all go on steroids to try and catch up to trans-women?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822734#Comment_118822734

No, I think medically transitioned transmen will be at a significant disadvantage competing against "biological" men so clearly it doesn't represent any problem with fairness. I think they should be made aware that they themselves may be at heightened risk in certain sports such as boxing/rugby but if they are ok with that then its their right.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822741#Comment_118822741

Your question is exactly what I am answering.

In female sports, certain PED's including testosterone are banned. If a biological female wants to live as a man, fair enough, but if they want to compete in a sport, they have to follow the same rules as everyone else, including the use of PEDs. I don't think I can be any clearer.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822758#Comment_118822758

I would prefer people answered the question.

If people cannot change gender it follows that trans men are women. Therefore if sports are segregating according to biology trans men should compete against women.

Yes or No.

If Yes - what about the physical advantages they have gained by medically transitioning?

If No - who should they compete against?

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822772#Comment_118822772

Then you recognise that due to medically transitioning trans men can be regarded as men when it comes to sports?

The biology rule can be waived?

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822788#Comment_118822788

Are transgender men women?

Yes or No?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822805#Comment_118822805

I never made any "biology" rule. But as far as I am concerned women can compete in male sports right now if they want without even transitioning. Because there is no "fairness" reason to exclude them.

My view is that female sports are a protected category - i.e. the one with restrictions on entry - and male sports are to all intents and purposes an open category.

Have my stopwatch on for this thread. 😉

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822819#Comment_118822819

I did ask that those who advocate strict segregation according to biology explain how to 'deal' with transgender men.

I am genuinely interested in their response.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822814#Comment_118822814

Biologically, to avoid any whinging, Yes.

And should they wish to compete in a sport, they should have the same rules as everyone else. Including those on PED use.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822874#Comment_118822874

Ok.

Is it your position that in order to be allowed to compete in sports a transgender man has to effectively de-transition?

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822882#Comment_118822882

I have no position on it other than the rules should be adhered to. It is up to the person to decide what they want to do. I'm sure there are plenty of athletes who have had to retire/not make it due to the medications they are on being on a banned list.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822942#Comment_118822942

The rules are being adhered to - the rules for most sports state transgender athletes who meet the hormonal criteria may compete in the category of the gender they identify as.

You wish the rules to be changed so it's segregated strictly according to biology.

Thank you for your honest engagement.

If I may - what category to you think athletes considered 'intersex' should be placed in?

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822982#Comment_118822982

I haven't looked into intersex, and in this case, am not going to. It has nothing to do with transgenderism, it is a medical condition, which apparently gender dysphoria isn't.

Captain Barnacles

Ron De Santis being the voice of reason as always :

https://youtu.be/b-l_XDC8g34

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823483#Comment_118823483

The world needs more politicians like him.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822321#Comment_118822321

I’ve no doubt you know how science works, no need to be snippy about it. I’ve no doubt you also know how medical ethics and laws and national selection committees work too in order to arrive at a favourable outcome in terms of who should join a team to participate in international sports competitions, as opposed to the idea that the only criteria that is relevant is biology.

That’s why an athlete studying an academic discipline in the US loses out on a position on the team because they fail to meet the qualifying time in the heats, but they can still compete in the Olympics and represent their country, Hungary in this case, whereas the athlete who is born in the US, is excluded from competing in the US, and cannot represent another country at the Olympics, effectively ending their athletic career before it’s even begun.

Science can’t determine fairness in sports, which is the crux of the issue for ALL athletes, not just current athletes, but those young athletes who will hope to participate in competitions and represent their countries in the future. In America, being regarded in sports as an All-American athlete is kind of a big deal.

Btw the proposition is that a different set of rules applies to a particular subset of athletes, while there is insufficient scientific evidence to support what is regarded as discrimination which is unfair to them and a disproportionate measure which inhibits their participation in sports. Science doesn’t decide a person’s gender either. For that the only thing that is relevant is the law, and upholding their rights to autonomy and to participate in sports.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821554#Comment_118821554

Because a lot of people are cis men obsessively angry that trans women exist. Thats it really.

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823761#Comment_118823761

Incorrect and wrong.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821697#Comment_118821697

Sports are just one example among many where people are determined to keep people who are transgender from being able to participate in public life

Thats exactly it. Its an agenda to restrict trans people dressed up as faux concern about fairness in womens sport.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822071#Comment_118822071

You're asking for my opinion. My preferred solution would be to have an Open category rather than a male category, and allow everyone of every sex and gender to compete there (Subject to standard PED rules, which could potentially cause an issue for Transmen if Testosterone usage is not covered by TUEs). I absolutely wouldn't want to see anyone prevented from taking part in sports as long as the rules are fair to everyone. Some sports events already do this. Some sports event results are de-facto treated this way.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822982#Comment_118822982

You're missing the point of the sports segregated by sexes, females can already compete in the "male" category of most sports if they are good enough, it typically isn't a male category at all, any human can enter it.

If a trans-man wants to compete against males, they are taking the risk on themselves and they must adhere to any requirements (e.g. testosterone levels). The trans-man is disadvantaged due to having lower bone mass, smaller lung capacity, differently shaped hips and generally smaller frame (among other differences). The risk in contact sports is very high to the trans-man to the extent they may not be allowed to compete at elite levels due to that danger to themselves.

A trans-woman competing in female events has all those advantages.

If you could find a sport where females have an advantage over males, then yes, it would be unfair for the trans-man to compete against other men in that sport.

But there is no such sport (even your debunked ultra endurance running).

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825344#Comment_118825344

You're missing the point of the sports segregated by sexes, females can already compete in the "male" category of most sports if they are good enough, it typically isn't a male category at all, any human can enter it.

They can’t though, it’s absolutely a male only category. That’s why Chris Mosier was worried about their future in sports and why they campaigned to have the IOC change their policies regarding the participation of transgender athletes.

And that’s not the point of the sports segregated by sexes either. The point of sports segregated by the sexes is so that the prestige and status in sports traditionally only played by men (and even then only a certain type of man), is maintained.

There’s no testing to determine whether or not it’s fair that men with either low or high natural testosterone levels have a biological advantage over other men for example, because however hard it has been tried, deductive reasoning is not definitive proof of an advantage so great that it necessitates a policy to exclude a whole group of people on the basis of being within a specific encdocrinological range - fancy a pork burrito if you’re a man? Enjoy. Fancy a pork burrito if you’re a woman - that’s a paddlin’, and no amount of blaming it on Mexican immigrants hygiene standards is going to be accepted as an explanation.

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/15/1006622129/an-olympic-hopeful-says-her-burrito-is-to-blame-for-her-positive-drug-test

Arguing about the capabilities of a list of top 100 runners in the world all being men are nothing more tan than specious nonsense. The top 100 cheerleaders in the world are women. I know you’re interested in scholarship opportunities, so not to disappoint -

https://www.ncsasports.org/cheerleading/cheerleading-scholarships

Nobody is arguing that anyone be forced to participate in any sport they don’t want to. It’s the fact that they shouldn’t be able to determine whether or not anyone else has the same opportunity as they do to participate in sports without discrimination as to their sex or gender.

Maintaining that the restrictions are to protect integrity and fairness in womens sports is nonsense, there’s been little interest in protecting the integrity or fairness of women’s sports up to now, apart from when the physical examination was disregarded for the pseudoscientific nonsense it is, chromosome testing was disregarded as unreliable, and hormone testing is also regarded as an insufficient scientific standard to determine sex for the purposes of competing in competition.

Imagine if the same resources which are put into sex testing women were put into actual protecting athletes from abuse and actually promoting women in sports what could be achieved? Crazy idea I know, better to promote pseudoscientific nonsense as legitimate when comparing apples and oranges to deduce the nutritional value of grapes 🙄

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825344#Comment_118825344

I am not missing any point.

But it is interesting watching people dancing on the head of a pin trying not a answer a very simple question.

I did not ask what the current rules are. I know what they are - and no. Cis women may not directly compete against cis man in a great many sports. It has nothing to do with being "good enough", it has to do with that precious trope of "bigger/faster/stronger" being evoked.

My question was a very simple question.

In response to your pin dancing I will re-word it.

If those sport that are currently segregated by gender become segregated by biology should transgender men be compelled to compete against women?

Yes or No.

Podge_irl

And that’s not the point of the sports segregated by sexes either. The point of sports segregated by the sexes is so that the prestige and status in sports traditionally only played by men (and even then only a certain type of man), is maintained.

You keep coming out with this nonsense as if the prestige and status of men would be threatened one iota by women being able to participate together in their sports. There would be predominantly only men in elite sports if they were not segregated and there would be only men competing to actually win and gain prestige.

Women's sports were undoubtedly not given the requisite support and treated as second class for an incredibly long time (and still are to a large degree in most sports). But the problem is not that they were segregated out - there would in essence be no women in elite sport to worry about if they had not been.

(there are niche examples such as not allowing women to compete in marathons for example, though at the competitive end they are to all intents and purposes running separate races)

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825513#Comment_118825513

It’s as though you imagine the 50/50 gender split at the Olympics in Tokyo was just a happy accident or something 😒

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825291#Comment_118825291

I can see where you are coming from, but lets look at the figures:

"The DSM-5 estimates that about 0.005% to 0.014% of people assigned male at birth and 0.002% to 0.003% of people assigned female at birth are diagnosable with gender dysphoria." or 1 in 30,000 males and 1 in 100,000 females.

That is a statically tiny percentage.

I could only find figures on medical transitioning from 2011 - and those were self-reporting by a relatively small sample size.

"61 percent of trans and gender nonconforming respondents reported having medically transitioned, and 33 percent said they had surgically transitioned. About 14 percent of trans women and 72 percent of trans men said they don’t ever want full genital construction surgery."

https://www.vox.com/identities/2016/5/13/17938114/transgender-people-transitioning-surgery-medical

Sooo - roughly 6 out of 10 of those 1 in 30,000 males and 1 in 100,000 females tweak their hormones.

How many of that 6 are athletes?

How many are good enough to be considered elite?

I reckon there would be more competitors at a large school's sport day then elite trans athletes who meet the hormone requirements in the whole world.

Who would fund them? Who would sponsor the events?

The nearest thing to what you are suggesting is The Gay Games, who have adopted a policy of, while segregating by all the usual categories to ensure fairness , stating people's gender will not be policed. The athlete self declares whether they wish to compete against men or women.

https://gghk2022.com/en/legal/gender-inclusion/

But lets be honest - as fun as the Gay Games are, and judging by the level of training the Irish team did for the Paris games the participants take it very seriously - but it ain't elite.

It's not even elitist as anyone can enter - gay, straight, trans, non-binary. It is completely inclusive.

But not elite by any stretch of the imagination.

Trying to restrict the very small number of elite trans athletes to competing only against other trans athletes would effectively bar most from competing at all simply because there wouldn't be anyone for them to compete against no?

And what about the team players? Soccer...rugby...volleyball...basketball etc etc.

Be hard pressed to get even one top flight team of both transmen and trans women never mind two.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825495#Comment_118825495

What non-contact sports are females banned from competing in against males? Track, athletics even soccer are open to females if they are good enough, at the non-elite levels they constantly mix

If those sport that are currently segregated by gender become segregated by biology should transgender men be compelled to compete against women?

If they stop taking testosterone supplements, why not (providing the sport doesn't have a ban on juicing in the off season). Again, at lower levels in sport, this happens all the time, it's when competitions and risk kicks in that the regulations also kick in.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825463#Comment_118825463

I'm sure you didn't come down in the last shower and believe the "pork burrito" excuse from a competitive athlete :)

(I'm sure these type of mistakes happen, but nowhere near as often as the effected athletes end up claiming).

And not sure where you're going on cheerleading, cheerleading squads who compete have a mix of genders, male and female cheerleaders can get scholarships, which gender has the advantage in cheerleading? The scoring criteria also matches the fact that it's mixed gender (unlike gymnasts where the skills are differentiated due to these differences).

(you really need to cut down on the whataboutery, burrito case was a particular reach, it doesn't add anything to your posts, I'm guessing most will skip over it entirely)

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825762#Comment_118825762

It’s not whataboutery, sure isn’t it all to do with protecting the integrity of women’s sports? 😏

Too right I didn’t come down in the last shower, that’s why I’m not prepared to swallow nonsense about the restrictions on transgender athletes having anything to do with protecting the integrity of women’s sports or any feigning concerns for the safety and welfare of women. That reasoning itself is the very definition of whataboutery, when the objectives of fairness, safety, promotion and protection of women’s sports is in no way threatened by the participation of people who are transgender.

It’s why I don’t even entertain the argument that it would lead to a deluge of men claiming to be women in order to participate in women’s sports - have you seen what happens to anyone who has tried? It’s precisely because they’re transgender is the only reason they are disproportionately targeted for derision and scorn. That has to be taken into account in terms of fairness to all athletes regardless of their gender or sex (some competitions specify gender, some competitions specify sex).

The point I was making about cheerleading was in relation to the same point that’s being made about running - so what if the top 100 runners in the world are men? What’s that got to do with anything? The top 100 cheerleaders in the world are women? Still nothing to do with anything. In every sport there are opportunities for all sorts of body types and positions on the field of play in team sports - the advantages and disadvantages balance each other out overall and everyone plays to their strengths. It’s for this reason that we know of Usain Bolt the runner, and not Usain Bolt the cricketer - an early injury in cricket put the skids on any hope of excelling in cricket, so he changed to running. Plenty of people do, and they change events and they change all sorts as they age.

Nobody is actually restricted to any particular sport to the degree that posters arguments about the top competitors in any particular sport is of any relevance to the discussion, just like nobody is required to read my posts if they don’t want to - nobody is going to force them to, and it doesn’t mean they will be excluded from the discussion simply because they have the attention span of a gnat, but imagine they have the power and authority to determine international sports policies based upon nothing more than their own ick factor.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825859#Comment_118825859

Unsure of the point you're actually trying to make here other then males being great at running? (the top 100 female runners are pretty good too but will be about 10% off the top 100 people).

Anyone can play any sport they want to, if you want to compete and earn recognised medals, you need to follow the rules.

It sounds like we're past the point where self-affirmation is enough (we are, aren't we?)

Which means we're actually at the point of what level of disadvantage leads to a level playing field or finding out that the level playing field is impossible from a practical standpoint.

You're right that the current number is too small for it to have any meaningful effect at the macro level, but it can have a big impact at the micro level, particuarly on female competition right at the time when we want more females participating in sports (as there is a huge drop out when they hit puberty leading to lower levels of fitness for a lifetime) it's also when some female sports (soccer being one) are finally getting increased sponsorship and exposure (the big problem is still that females don't tend to watch other females play sport so it's primarily male viewership being targeted where there is only so many eyeballs to go around).

Mr Bumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817106#Comment_118817106

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808668#Comment_118808668

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825567#Comment_118825567

Of course it wasn't an accident - it was forced. That is the entire point.

In a world with no segregation it would have been 100% male.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825907#Comment_118825907

the big problem is still that females don't tend to watch other females play sport so it's primarily male viewership being targeted where there is only so many eyeballs to go around

That’s a low blow astro 😂😂

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118826024#Comment_118826024

Right, at least you’re not still trying to convince yourself that it had anything to do with biology.

That’s the REAL point - sports competitions aren’t just based upon biology, they’re purposely configured, by humans, who make up rules and regulations as to who can and cannot participate. It doesn’t matter that the 100 best runners in the world are men, it doesn’t matter that the one million best runners in the world are men, that has nothing to do with prohibiting anyone from participating on the grounds of either gender or sex, they can still participate, and they do.

They’re just paid a lot less, and they aren’t held in the same esteem as the mens games, because men are permitted to do things women aren’t - the rules for men and women are different, whereas there’s nothing to stop the rules from being the same for all participants regardless of their sex or gender.

They don’t even have to have the same training or diet regime, and many of them don’t. They don’t even have to be amateur or professional, and many of them aren’t, so the idea that the 10000000000 best athletes in the world are men? Who gives a fcuk?

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118826438#Comment_118826438

The rules?

How is running in a straight line more beneficial to men? Explain that one.

Podge_irl

Right, at least you’re not still trying to convince yourself that it had anything to do with biology.

This doesn't even make sense though I'm happy for you that you seem to think you made me concede something. There is a 50/50 (roughly) split because it is enforced by rules that create a separate space for women who otherwise could not compete fairly with men.

They’re just paid a lot less, and they aren’t held in the same esteem as the mens games, because men are permitted to do things women aren’t - the rules for men and women are different, whereas there’s nothing to stop the rules from being the same for all participants regardless of their sex or gender

Indeed, there is nothing. Though women will then be held in even less esteem and earn even less because they will likely never win anything in professional or elite sports ever again. Women don't run slower than men cause they "are not permitted" to run as fast.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118826386#Comment_118826386

I honestly feel very sheepish right now, the high horse is retired and I won't be back for a few hours!