Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404787#Comment_122404787

I understood what you meant, its just to use trans as anti trans for competing in the wrong category of sport should not even come into it TBH, that is going down their rabbit hole for me, there are two categories which it seems we now have to call biological male ands biological female categories because of very small minority have looked to take advantage of not including the word biological.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404822#Comment_122404822

I agree on the mangling of language - it does appear to be deliberate in order to cause confusion.

I do like it when smarter people than me are able to take an argument to it's logical conclusion and demonstrate where it's problematic. That's why I mentioned it.

Others have pointed out the underlying misogyny in a lot of the activism - this is another example.

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404864#Comment_122404864

You are plenty smart enough yourself Aero :)

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122405329#Comment_122405329

Thanks greyday - often when "smart" is used to describe me, it tends to be quickly followed by "arse"🤣!

My posting history might lead an observer to conclude that I have an obsession with trans issues. in fact, I was drawn in here by my obsession with fairness in sport, and into the the WPATH thread by a fascination with how people can often ignore factual evidence in order to cling to strongly held beliefs, and also how people are willing to cause harm, or allow harm to be caused, in the name of an ideology.

Thankfully, there are signs that things are starting to improve re. sports and WPATH.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395510#Comment_122395510

If ever a picture painted 1000 words….

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122408215#Comment_122408215

I think all men on this thread were drawn in due to the fairness issue in women's sport.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122408257#Comment_122408257

Sure as there was no fairness issue in women's sport before trans movement inserted one there. There were issues like DDR female athletes using hormones to increase performance and slowly turning woman into a man but it was dealt with quite fast.

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122410336#Comment_122410336

And everyone would have condemned that at the time as with any other drug issue in any sport, not just women's, the issue is people are endorsing this unfairness and telling us black is white.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122408257#Comment_122408257

My apologies for not noting the source of the story but I read somewhere yesterday a "sports writer" - Graham Simms I think, if memory serves, saying "I want to see the end to gendered sports".

So the end of women's sports then, as despite the fact we have so many things to offer the world, elite women will always run and swim slower than elite men, throw a shorter distance and even more concerningly, not hit as hard and be hit harder.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122410689#Comment_122410689

Only a male writer (or someone with no understanding of sports) would write something like that.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122410336#Comment_122410336

It's actually possible to have more than 1 issue, and for each issue to be tackled, either at the same time or in sequence, or a combination of both. Mad, isn't it!

But this thread is about one of those issues, so all the others, whether past, present, or future, are not relevant to this thread.

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122410689#Comment_122410689

There is a problem at the moment with people using sex and Gender as if they mean the same thing, a sleight of hand when it suits people, Sex is binary as we know, male and females with very very rare instances of deviation from this, I have lost count of the amount of genders we are now told there are which is enough to show it is very different from biological sex.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122410689#Comment_122410689

I wonder if that was George Simms where he says in the article below about darts, that he wants to see the end of gendered categories completely.

He wrote this a few days ago:

The rage against trans women’s inclusion in women’s darts is completely misguided. Unlike contact sports, there is no issue of safety and no evidence trans women hold any advantage in hand-eye coordination or any relevant skill to darts. Any discussion of the minutiae of motor function is instantly invalidated by the fact players at all levels still regularly compete after five pints of bitter.

It strikes me that darts could potentially be a sport where trans women could compete at some level with women, so long as the women concerned are okay with it, and women who want to compete in women's only events can still do that. But no he wants an end to gendered categories completely.

I wonder if Simms can conceive that drinking five pints of bitter, rather than "invalidating .. any discussion of the minutiae of motor function" might instead be a reason why some women wouldn't want to compete against males.

At the end of the day, it seems mad pointing this out in the 21st century but women are entitled to their own categories excluding males if that's what they want.

https://inews.co.uk/sport/transgender-darts-star-noa-lynn-van-leuven-bullied-tournament-3180489

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122410689#Comment_122410689

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122411179#Comment_122411179

The transwomen who are entering women's sports to improve their chances of victory, wouldn't like to see one big open category.

Hamsterchops

When it comes to sport ones gender (in traditional terms) is very important, with men competing against men & women competing gainst women.

Regarding all the newly created "genders" on the block, it really doesn't matter what label / personality they ascribe themselves, whether it be transgender, non-binary, agender, pangender, genderqueer or other, because the only thing that matters in sport is human anatomy & physiology, and that's either male or female, man xy or woman xx.

mjsc1970

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412703#Comment_122412703

The End.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412283#Comment_122412283

Cyclist Emily Bridges had flatly refused to enter an open category - as it clear that by competing against other biological males they will be as unsuccessful as competing in the male category, like Lia Thomas - 500th place v men, first v women.

Vote4Squirrels

That's him @plodder - dreadful person and such a misogynistic opinion!!!

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122413758#Comment_122413758

Unfortunately, though the post you quoted is correct, there's still a lot of work to be done to ensure women can compete on a level playing field.

aero2k

Enduro correctly pointed out that the issues of drugs in sport and men in women's sports are separate. It did strike me though, that the proliferation of both has relied on cowardice by sporting organisations. There are numerous stories about positive drug tests being covered up to avoid embarrassment. The resoltion to the Lance Armstrong debacle only really gained traction due to the FDA getting involved - they were interested in offences of moving prohibited drugs across state lines rather than any sporting issue per se. It was obvious to anyone with even a casual knowledge of pro cycling that Armstrong was doping.

Regarding men in women's sports, the chat between Stella O'Malley and coach Blade was very interesting. It's been going on forever, although not with the official approval we've seen in recent times. Apparently there were 9 males in women's sports at the Atlanta Olympics. Blade explains how eligibility was decided on the basis of politics rather than science.

plodder

First, second and third places go to teams with transgender athletes apparently at a Washington women's team cycle race a few days ago.

I say apparently, though from the photo, there isn't much doubt about the winner anyway …

Serious point though, the Madison is a team event, and it looks like the best chance for women's teams now is to include a transgender male, at least until women are squeezed out completely.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13660579/transgender-athletes-female-Washinton-cycling-championship.html

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122419771#Comment_122419771

If you didnt know better you would think this was a piss take or some sort of prank!

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122419771#Comment_122419771

That's both unbelievable, and totally believable at the same time!

It, yet again, shows that the "only small numbers" argument as the pile of evasive nonsense it is.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122419771#Comment_122419771

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420608#Comment_122420608

Track cycling is a very physical sport, the bikes dont have brakes, the Madison event consists of two person teams where one slings the other into action. Add in significant physical disparity - what could go wrong?

Hamsterchops

Was listening to Sharon Dsvies being interviewed re the Olympics, and apparently the IOC won't take charge of the gender issue, so it's up to each individual sport as to how they govern their own disciplines. Swimming will not allow trans identifying males to compete against women, Track & field (athletics) too, same for hockey, cycling & boxing, which is great 👍

However, there are other sports in the Olympics that will allow men (who identify as women) to compete against women!

Not sure which sports they are though ……

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420724#Comment_122420724

Sharron Davies has absolutely skin in this game, she was facing athletes who were so full of drugs that no biological woman could beat them ….as with Riley Gaines and her team mates. Nothing has changed sadly.

Enduro

The IBA are a nasty corrupt mess of a governing body, but they appear to have higher standards than the IOC! feckin hell, I didn't see this coming…

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/29/boxers-who-failed-gender-tests-at-world-championships-cleared-to-compete-at-olympics

It'll be interesting to see how it is reported if either of these two end up in the ring with one of the Irish boxers in the Olympics.

Good to see that Barry McGugian is questioning what is going on here

https://twitter.com/clonescyclone/status/1817800751848054877?s=46&t=zLQRL21Oic_CarUB-GjhoQ

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441612#Comment_122441612

I just flicked through the article. Punching power is 162% greater for those who have gone through male puberty - ah shure it'll be grand 😞.

CatFromHue

I don't think either athlete is trans, more than likely DSD.

It's also their second Olympics for both of them and Harrington beat Khelif in 2020.

Frank Bullitt

For anyone wanting to know the difference between female and male performance, but say there is no data or evidence.

Just watch the Olympics.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441866#Comment_122441866

It’s not about being against transgender people per se though. If they have a DSD, they will still be genetically either male or female. Caster Semenya, for instance, is genetically male and went through male puberty. It’s not Semenya’s fault but he is male, not female. If his disability prevents him from competing against able-bodied male runners then IMO he needs to be in the Paralympics (male categories). Same for these boxers.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441866#Comment_122441866

It was the TRAs and their ilk who decided to include those with a DSD under their "umbrella" - I believe the blue circle on the yellow background on the so called "progress flag" denotes that group - and indeed one of the key themes of the recent Trans Pride event was "no medicalisation for intersex people" - odd that they wish to push medication and surgery on to kids who don't conform to outdated stereotypes, yet actively want to prevent the same for something that can be helped by medical intervention (removal of external testes on someone with DSD who has female DNA etc).

I digress - Thursday we will have a male boxer, with stronger bones, larger muscles, a greater reach and almost three times the force in his punch than females - fighting a biological female. Because he's not especially good is irrelevant - sure Katie Taylor knocked out Paddy Barnes sparring, one offs happen.

If this doesn't wake up people to keep women's sports for women, nothing will.

Francie Barrett

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/07/30/banda-kundananji-zambia-football-testosterone-olympics/

Two women’s football players with abnormally high testosterone score five goals in one game

Shameful 😡

plodder

It’s possible some of these boxers (and footballers) have Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, which can mean that testosterone didn’t have the same degree of effect on them when they were developing the primary sex characteristics in the womb. But, then you see some of them are fairly muscular looking. So, maybe AIS is not their situation, or if it is, the AIS is only partial. Who knows?

AIS is very rare (over 80% of DSDs don’t have any impact on gender/sex despite what some would say) yet it’s not hard to see that a person with partial AIS raised as a woman could easily rise to the top of women’s sport.

The whole area is a minefield, and you can see there is a need for sensitivity toward athletes who maybe have never been genetically tested before, but I don’t see any other way forward. It has to be based on simple rules (presence or absence of a Y chromosome). Some of these DSDs benefit from medical intervention, from a purely health perspective. So, it surely stands to reason that a one off sex test as early as possible in an athlete’s career is to everyone’s benefit. The other thing is someone with AIS who was raised as a woman, presumably has a female birth cert and passport etc. So, it doesn’t have to affect the rest of their lives, if that is how they identify.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447660#Comment_122447660

When "sex testing" is referred to the usual nonsense begins like it's an initmate examination - it's a DNA cheek swab. End of.

It is interesting to read the quote there "abnormally high testosterone levels" - not for a biological male, it's bang on the money.

Hugely disappointed in the IOC spokesman yesterday addressing the controversy "but their passports say female".

We will see tomorrow so.

DeadHand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441883#Comment_122441883

The people who make that argument have zero knowledge of or interest in sport.

They won't be watching anyway.

ceadaoin.

People with dsds are still either male of female though, and that should be the basis of where they compete. Could be wrong but are there any females with these issues trying compete with men? I don't think so. Or even any trans men in the men's categories? If not, I wonder why. It's a mystery I guess.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447840#Comment_122447840

I believe that is why the term "intersex" was phased out - 99% plus of the small number of people with a DSD are clearly one sex or the other but may have a high hormone level, or an internal organ that is of the opposite sex.

The footballers here and the two boxers tomorrow are biologically and chromosomally male - they clearly have gone through male puberty.

I really hope the fight doesn't happen but I hope this is not because the woman who has trained her life for this moment and feels she must withdraw for her safety.

chopperbyrne

Women athletes were once asked to vote on if they wanted to continue sex testing with a cheek swab, and voted 80%+ in favour of continuing, but they're just silly women, so were ignored, and it was scrapped from Sydney onwards.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448114#Comment_122448114

It just needs to be reintroduced ASAP.

If a few people don't like it tough, it helps ensure fairness, not wanting sex testing is like not wanting drug testing for international sports.

Whats pathetic is the Olympic movement has a huge degree of clout world wide and should be able to tell objectors to piss off and move on without issue but it seems its been gripped by gender identity nonsense aswell.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448114#Comment_122448114

when a mania takes over society , there is winning a war and then there is shooting all the survivors ;-)

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447924#Comment_122447924

The problem is if the woman were to win (and it could very well happen) it will just embolden idiots to say "see it makes no difference, therefore biological men should be allowed if they identify as women" forgetting of course that it just means the biological male isn't a very good boxer and that loads of female boxers could beat poor quality male boxers.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447836#Comment_122447836

They will be along after they are finished to say that the females should just rain harder though.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

So you can literally be banned for taking over the counter medicines for regular ailments in the Olympics BUT it's ok to take massive amounts of drugs to alter your "gender" to batter women.

What have I missed?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412283#Comment_122412283

What does that even mean? Are you suggesting trans women are pretending to be trans just to compete in women's sports?

silverharp

women need to stand up for themselves and stop playing along with this nonsense, men wouldnt put up with it if teams started including robots

https://twitter.com/MailOnline/status/1818708702083330262

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122450713#Comment_122450713

It doesn't matter if they are "trans" women or not. They shouldn't be competing against women. They are still males. If you choose to transition then you just have to accept that you cant compete against biological women. It's not that difficult. There's always the open/men's division

You might want to read up on the lengths that some men have gone to in order to cheat at sports. Pretending to be a woman is nothing in comparison. I'm sure lance Armstrong wishes he could have just done that.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122451320#Comment_122451320

Have you not noticed? There are women standing up for themselves, but they are painted as right wing, crazy and transphobic, even the likes of Martina navratilova and Sharron Davies.

The vast majority of people know that this is wrong. You'd be hard pressed to find someone in real life who thinks that a male athlete in any discipline should compete against a female. We all need to speak up and say no at this point.

plodder

I see the Italian boxing federation and government aren't happy about the Algerian boxer competing against the Italian Angela Carini (this morning)

Italy’s Family and Equal Opportunities Minister Eugenia Roccella went further.

“It is of great concern to learn that two transgender people, men who identify as women, were admitted to women’s boxing competitions at the Olympic Games in Paris after having been excluded from recent competitions,” Roccella said.

I guess we don't actually know whether she is transgender or has a DSD. The IOC just checked her passport 🙄

The Australian women's team captain has come out against it too, as one of her team mates might have to compete against her.

Not a good situation for the Algerian or Chinese boxers either, but they did fail a gender test previously, so must have known this would be coming.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/07/31/caitlin-parker-imane-khelif-lin-yu-ting-boxing-olympics-ioc/

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122451692#Comment_122451692

I agree but women need to collectively boycott more things, that girl featured obviously felt compelled or even "agreed" to compete