Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858552#Comment_120858552

In some sports there is but these are being dropped more and more often. They seem to be a hangover from when the female divisions didn't exist, these are all done "at risk" to the participant hence why there is very few examples, but it does allow trans-men and trans-women to compete in the "open" category (which will eventually replace men's everywhere).

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858521#Comment_120858521

And again astro - you’re putting forward assumptions in the absence of evidence. You’d point out the issues with that attempt yourself were anyone else to use the same logic in making their case.

As for this though -

Hence why no one is really engaging on the Irish women's world cup team, it's a non-argument in the trans-debate.

Funny thing about that was I expected no engagement at all, because as I explained to Overheal, logic and reason suggests the only people who would respond to it are those whom the cap fits. That’s why I was surprised when Overheal responded indicating it was way past his bedtime, and you responded to tell me that it wasn’t relevant to the thread, as though I don’t have the same agency as you do to decide what is or isn’t relevant in this thread.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858537#Comment_120858537

I have stated my position numerous times on this thread Astro, it’s not difficult to understand, provided one isn’t deliberately intending to go out of their way to misrepresent my position in order to ridicule it for a bit of thanks whoring.

As for the idea that I would ever pull anyone up on a typo, you probably got that idea from when I do so when it’s amusing for both parties, a Freudian slip for example, because I’ve never done it by way of petty point scoring. Having the structure and style of my own posts critiqued for the amusement of others is a shìtty thing to do, yet there’s not a word out of you when it happens.

I don’t make that point to point score, it’s completely understandable why you wouldn’t do it, I’d make a joke about turning a blind eye, but we’ve been there before 😂

2Greyfoxes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858522#Comment_120858522

You may call it Bigotry, but we all discriminate whether we like it or not.

Dating preferences, employment criteria, prefered loction to live, etc, etc.

Labeling it as Bigotry, just diminishes the value and use of that word/concept.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858590#Comment_120858590

There is no absence of evidence here, sports science has it covered (and you are perfectly able to dispute sports science if you can provide evidence to do so).

The most famous recent example being the 5-2 victory for the U-15 boys team against the US women's (later to be world champions) team:

FC Dallas under-15 boys squad beat the U.S. Women's National Team in a scrimmage - CBSSports.com

I doubt we'd see the same thing in sports like rugby (beyond training exercises which do happen) as you'd need to be absolutely cracked to attempt it and/or find willing teams to do so, we don't need a team of injured females to validate what we know will happen.

Hence most science papers covering areas like grip strength, muscle mass, impact power and can extrapolate the damage it would do to male and female biology.

I did see some allusion earlier of modern sports science to disgraced areas such as phrenology but without any evidence to back it up (this is on the same level as arguing for the flat earth, in science terms).

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858638#Comment_120858638

Sorry, and to be fair I haven't seen you argue as such, even if you'll frustrate other users who haven't read the thread on your actual position when simple yes/no or explanation will suffice, but I am increasingly having to include a "with all these caveats already discussed" to stop a discussion ratholing on the beginning steps (some people, on both sides, really want to turn it into a "trans-women don't exist" debate and try and frame it that way).

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858571#Comment_120858571

It's more a case of not a chance.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858722#Comment_120858722

Hold on a second - you’re making the extraordinary claims, the obligation is on you to provide compelling evidence for those claims in order to justify your position. Instead you resort to anecdotal evidence and extrapolations based upon incomplete datasets, small-scale studies and just outright bullshìt? I’ve pointed this out already, repeating the same argument no matter how many times it’s repeated doesn’t give the argument any more force, legitimacy or credibility than it didn’t have already.

I know you’re aware of the ethical issues with double-blind studies in humans, it’s why scientists are reluctant to use data that was gathered during the Holocaust, but that’s simply not necessary here because it’s an issue of human rights, as opposed to using bad science to justify the ongoing unfair treatment of a section of society.

Do the terms “model minority myth” mean anything to you? They should, because you’re applying the exact same principle, only in a different context -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority_myth

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858564#Comment_120858564

Why are you afraid to say straight out that you don’t think women’s sporting competitions should be exclusively for biological women?

That you think that biological women just shouldn’t have that right? Why can’t you just admit that?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858651#Comment_120858651

Dating preferences, employment criteria, prefered loction [sic] to live

Yep giving prime examples where bigotry thrives. Should people who sell their homes begin implementing anti-trans covenants in the contract of sale too? Don't know what dating etc. has to do precisely with sports though.

"You may call it Bigotry"

Thanks I will, a spade's a spade.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858866#Comment_120858866

Again...what are you on about?

This is not an anti trans thing!

This is about sport and fairness. Posts are getting fairly sexist now.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858841#Comment_120858841

I've read enough sports science to know that the onus is entirely on you to prove that males and females can compete on equal terms, you are fighting an abundance of evidence and have provided naught.

And I am aware, the anecdotes show that females cannot compete with men in team sports and that an average male can transition and become an above average woman.

They are anecdotes because no one seriously expects to run a male/female rugby league, that if there is a mixed competition, there has to be quotas in place to ensure fairness (e.g. 1 male, 1 female on a team). This is backed up by any number of sports science papers that you would have to refute (and I know you can't do that just as I know the earth isn't flat).

You can start by refuting these 2:

A Comparison between Male and Female Athletes in Relative Strength and Power Performances - PMC (nih.gov)

Hand-grip strength of young men, women and highly trained female athletes - PubMed (nih.gov)

And continue on from there if successful.

This is a more anecdotal study but with references and methodology behind their reasonings:

Comparing Athletic Performances: The Best Elite Women to Boys and Men | Duke University School of Law

(and these are not extraordinary claims, probably a waste of hyperbolae there, even though you are going through the usual losing side tactic of asking others to fight you arguments for you given you are the king of anecdotes and side topics usually).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858889#Comment_120858889

All biological males (whether they identify as trans or non-binary) are excluded from women's sport.

The people asking for the discrimination are trans activists who want to divide biological males into two groups, with one group allowed to play against women.

Nobody is denied access to sport.

The people pushing for some biological males to have special privilege understand perfectly well their arguments are built on sand. They know it. They don't actually believe in the validity of the arguments they put across. Its arguing in a circle, for the sake of it.

That 's why labels are thrown around like confetti to shut down any debate on the matter.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858889#Comment_120858889

By claiming bigotry everywhere where none exists they can attempt to claim the moral high ground.

That calling everyone who disagrees with them a bigot is a sh*tty thing to do and cr*ppy way of debating is beside the point.

How do you discuss a topic with someone who is claiming (but pretending not to claim) that everyone else is a bigot.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858968#Comment_120858968

I never once have called anyone a bigot.

Are you calling me sh!t and cr@p, is that personal abuse? Of course not, you are opining that what I said is a sh*tty thing to do and a cr@ppy way of debating.

But you don't seem to apply the same logic to my posts.

2Greyfoxes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858866#Comment_120858866

OK, shall we try to disentangle this.

The claim was not allowing Trans Women into Women's sports was discrimination. I pointed out that discrimination is something we are all guilty of as we have preferences, and isn't always a bad thing., I used a few examples to try to highlight this point.

Not sure how you are confused, I haven't used any jargon, buzzwords, or presented my points as a world salad, but rather aimed to keep them concise and to the point.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859120#Comment_120859120

Are you sexist against women? Over 50% of the population.

They've fought hard for their rights and I'll be in the front line.

So, do you or do you not appreciate the need for equality within sport on a sex basis. Simple question but I imagine an essay as a non answer.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858865#Comment_120858865

It’s not that I’m afraid to utter the words that you wish to attribute to me, it’s that I would be a coward were I to accede to your demands to express a belief I don’t hold, just to satisfy your desire for everything to be just the way you like it in your world. I don’t expect anyone should have to do that.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858918#Comment_120858918

I won’t be providing evidence for a claim I’ve never made. I don’t think it’s unreasonable however to expect that if you claim women’s participation in sports will be reduced to zero as a consequence of men participating in women’s sports, the onus is absolutely on you to provide compelling evidence for that claim. It’s not quite the same as the flat earth claim, what you’re doing is more like an anti-vaxer expecting me to waste time disproving your claims for which you have feckall in the way of credible, legitimate scientific evidence, so you have to resort to taking petty swipes instead.

You chose to go there, I choose not to follow you down that rathole. Speaking of ratholes which you were so keen to avoid -

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858776#Comment_120858776

If you choose to take on the responsibility of portraying yourself as an impartial observer, sub-mod of the thread, whatever, I have no issue with that whatsoever, hell I figure fair play if you wish to take on that role, but at the risk of further frustrating, confusing or outright alienating you, I should clarify my position on the whole notion of “trans-women” - it’s not a term I use, and cognitively it refers to a woman who is transgender. I don’t use terms like “biological female” either, as that’s a cognitive leap which just doesn’t make any sense.

Men and women does me just fine, as I’m perfectly capable of distinguishing between men, and men who act like women, it isn’t logical to conclude that they are transgender, though I may often crudely refer to such men behaving like women as giant walking vaginas. I don’t expect anyone to assume I’m being literal. I may often observe women behaving as they though think they’re men, but there was more of that in the 90’s when ‘ladettes’ were a thing and young women were encouraged to engage in behaviour that they imagined was solely the purview of men, and men who imagined they were women were portrayed as wanting to trap heterosexual men into sexual submission.

They were simpler times 😔

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859268#Comment_120859268

Non answer. I'd go with cowardly post.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859268#Comment_120859268

Do you think that all this makes you appear cerebrally superior?

You know perfectly well that the only non- misogynistic position to hold is that biological men should be excluded from women’s sports. You know that because it’s very basic stuff and you’re not stupid.

What you are, though, is totally committed to defending an ideology that you agree with wholeheartedly for by far the most part but must defend 100% lest the whole game of cards totally collapse.

Id hate to be here day in a day out for months on end trying to find new ways of saying “sorry ladies, I’m all for women’s rights, but transwomen trump you every time, so, it is what it is…”.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859463#Comment_120859463

Do you think that all this makes you appear cerebrally superior?

Fcuk no! 😂

That good enough, or do you wish me to expand on that answer? I appreciate your telling me I’m not stupid, I’d love to believe it were true, but alas, just because I’m capable of reading or writing is not a measure of my intellect. Stephen Fry has been getting away with that one for decades.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859490#Comment_120859490

Stephen Fry is a ridiculously smart guy.

Also principled and articulate.

A bit like yourself perchance.

Also your post is pretty much how I see myself. Maybe we should have more confidence?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859529#Comment_120859529

I appreciate what you’re saying G, but you see what I mean?

Stephen Fry is a ridiculously smart guy.

He’s regarded as ridiculously smart because he is articulate. I wouldn’t agree he was principled, certainly not when he can profess a line of arrogant bullshìt like this and make it appear as though it’s a profound statement of fact -

It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so **** what."

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859574#Comment_120859574

I'd 100% agree with what he said.

Oh I'm so offended by something that was said. Your problem.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859612#Comment_120859612

Your agreement with what he said doesn’t make it any more true than it wasn’t already. For one thing it was never common for people to say “I’m offended by that”. What generally tends to happen to the likes of Fry is that he’s taken out and strung up by his underwear in the bicycle shed. That way nobody has to entertain his bullshìt.

Can’t really do that any more though 😒

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859636#Comment_120859636

Again what are you on about!

I agree with what they said and I'm wrong?

We should agree what you post and you can happily tell your mates I won an Internet question?

You're right. Fire away and suck in virtual pretend affirmation.

Also, you're very dismissive of what the man is saying. Is it because he's homosexual?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859684#Comment_120859684

I didn’t say you were wrong, I’m saying that your agreement with Fry doesn’t mean he’s right, it just means he’s got his head so far up his own fundament that he ignores the fact that he lives in a democracy where people have rights, and the right to be treated with dignity and respect is the most fundamental right which isn’t overridden by his ignorance.

Also, you're very dismissive of what the man is saying. Is it because he's homosexual?

No.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859717#Comment_120859717

I'll take his word above yours.

He struggled with homosexuality when it was illegal.

Dismiss me all you want, but don't dismiss people who had to struggle for their rights.

One eyed Jack

You’re more than welcome to, I’m not the least bit concerned about that because I know that there exists a set of rules which govern a society which are, as Stephen would put it - commonly referred to as laws. I’ve no doubt he’s familiar with the concept, and how they operate and function.

I’m not interested in dismissing you btw, I’ll dismiss anyone who appears to be incapable of understanding that there’s a whole world beyond the end of their own nose. It’s interesting though that you would request I shouldn’t dismiss people who have to struggle for their rights, particularly in the overall context of the thread.

What’s less interesting is that like Stephen, you don’t appear to imagine the same standards you expect of others, equally apply to you.