Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691071#Comment_121691071

That’s as subjective as your restaurant example. In law they’re treated as characteristics for the purposes of equality and protection from discrimination. Sports organisations don’t actually get to make up their own laws.

They're not. They are legally allowed (in most countries) to discriminate on the basis of sex rather than gender. Which is why none of the restrictions have been overturned in court.

Also the difference between the restaurant example and the sports example is rather glaringly obvious to (almost) everyone.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691129#Comment_121691129

If by physical advantages you’re referring to the reality that men’s sports are better funded and promoted and attitudes towards men’s participation in sports is far more accepted in society than women’s sports, then yes, men have numerous advantages in sports.

Performance is another matter entirely, which has never really been tested given that women weren’t permitted to participate in sports as equals with men, and it says nothing about people who are transgender participating in sports, be they either men or women, because the proportion of people who are transgender participating in any sport is negligible to begin with, precisely because of the discrimination and prejudice that persists and is permitted to persist in certain sports.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691071#Comment_121691071

there are numerous drugs which are prohibited, and for which a therapeutic use exemption is permitted. That doesn’t constitute legalised doping.

The amount of cyclists who suffer from asthma is suspiciously high though

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691205#Comment_121691205

That’s not quite it Podge - they are permitted only in circumstances where the discrimination can be justified as a means of achieving a legitimate aim, and the discrimination does not disproportionately impact on a particular group. The restrictions are only new! That’s why none of them have been overturned in Court, because cases can take years, and that’s if athletes have decided it’s worth pursuing a case at all. Most times they don’t, but they have been doing so recently because they’ve been encouraged by others who have pursued legal action to have their rights upheld.

There’s no difference between them from the point of view of what constitutes transphobia, it’s not something I’d be too interested in any case, precisely because it’s subjective - someone feels it is transphobia, the person who is discriminating feels it isn’t. It’s not different at all.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691214#Comment_121691214

Physical advantages have ZERO to do with funding and everything to do with simple biology.

Males are bigger, stronger, faster, have higher lung capacity, bigger hearts, bigger limbs, all of it. They lift more weights, run faster, throw further, this is not sexist, this is biological fact and why sports have been separated by sex.

It has never really been tested...that right there, everyone, is what keeping your head in the sand and fingers in your ears looks like.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121690100#Comment_121690100

Oh come on man, that’s like pointing out there’s nobody can match Gemma O’ Doherty intellectually - the question is why would anyone bother? it only legitimises Joyce’s nonsense. And truly it is nonsense, as pointed out in a review of both her book and Kathleen Stocks book, contrasting and comparing the two, in the Guardian, of course 😁

No man you missed the point entirely. I wasn't in any way endorsing HJ in particular, I don't know what nonsense it is you're referring to, and neither am I going to click on The Guardian link to find out.

It's the absence of any kind of debate from the TRA side I was pointing out. But as course that's not a surprise since their mantra is 'Trans rights are not up for debate'. Fine by me though, it's not getting them anywhere fast.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691302#Comment_121691302

That’s all wonderful Frank, but it’s been done to death already numerous times in the thread. It has nothing to do with anyone’s right to participate in sports. Sports organisations didn’t suddenly stop black men from participating in basketball just because white men can’t jump 😏

yosser hughes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691318#Comment_121691318

Has anyone's right to participate in sports been withdrawn?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691312#Comment_121691312

Nah man I got your point - the opposition are a bit shìt, which is absolutely true, fine. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t anyone who disagrees with Joyce who couldn’t challenge her. It means they’re just not bothered, much like the way the vast majority of endocrinologists, biologists, neurologists, hell basically the vast majority of the scientific and medical community has no interest whatsoever in wading into the culture wars, and we’re left with idiots like Ross Tucker and the Irish cardiologist who claimed that there were no six foot tall women in the WNBA 😁

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691318#Comment_121691318

Moving the goalposts of the discussion yet again, and a bit of whataboutery...yup, that is a OEJ post in a nutshell. 🤣

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691376#Comment_121691376

Ahh would ya stop Frank - my posts are too long, now they’re too short, I’m trying to be clever, now I’m moving the goalposts.

No Frank, there was no moving the goalposts, the whole nonsense about performance in sports is a distraction from the reality that it has never been a barrier to anyone’s participation in sports. The barrier was always that the image of the sport had to be maintained.

Some sports are dying on their arse, new sports are thriving, there’s no justification for the way some sports have decided in recent years to change the rules of the sport so they could exclude players who were previously able to participate and there wasn’t so much as a peep about it until the culture warriors latched onto it and then thought they could tell the blue haired brigade they could just ignore it if they don’t like it.

That’s obviously not going according to plan.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691412#Comment_121691412

I just can’t fathom how anyone can not grasp basic biology, and try and politicise it.

You're bringing in topics that have nothing to do with the basic premise that biological males possess advantages over females. All in a failed attempt to try and sound informed.

The image of sport should indeed, be maintained. No biological males should be allowed to compete against biological females, it is as simple as that.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691214#Comment_121691214

You conceded on the physical advantage previously (the karate example), back around the merry go round.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691462#Comment_121691462

I have no issue grasping basic biology. I’m just about as interested in it though as you are in the fact that there’s more to sports than biology. That’s not a failed attempt to sound informed, and let’s not pretend that sports organisations don’t exist, I can clearly see that they do, and so can you, and we can both clearly see that they make up the rules and regulations and promote the sport as they see fit, in order to maintain the image of the sport.

The problem they’re having now is that people are finding other sports to participate in, which the IOC are latching onto with gusto because they’re a popular sport. While pickleball won’t be an Olympic event in 2028, flag football will be. Pickleballers ain’t happy -

https://www.thedinkpickleball.com/olympics-2028-no-pickleball/amp/

Americans 😒

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691534#Comment_121691534

Hey leave me out of this I've never even heard of pickleball

Holla back when discgolf and kan jam make it to the olympics.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691497#Comment_121691497

Is this you again attributing positions to me that I have never held? Because certainly while I can remember you doing that before, I don’t remember conceding ground on any karate example, solely for the reason I have never been interested in the mano-a-mano effort of an argument that some people have put forward to be entertained. I’ve only ever been interested in the policies, because that’s what determines anyone’s right to participate in organised sports, not their physical or anatomical attributes.

CatFromHue

At the last Olympics the average height jumped of the top 10 in the final of the men's high jump was 2.34m and in the women's in it was 1.98m. The guy who finished 10th in men's jumped 2.30m and the girl who finished first in the women's jumped 2.04m.

The make up of the top 10 in each group was multi ethnic and from country's with very good sports scholarships like Great Britain, USA, and Canada. None of these 3, who usually have the best funded athletes, came in the top 5 of either group.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121692295#Comment_121692295

And how many of those athletes were transgender?

Ok that’s not a fair question because I don’t know the answer to that either 😂

The point is that it’s not just about the figures and the facts nor any of the rest of it, it’s about the whole purpose of sports and how it relates to a society in the first place, and what purposes it serves, which are many and varied, as opposed to just who can jump the highest or run the fastest or whatever.

Taking the last Olympic Games as an example, it’s an event which is viewed by millions around the world. It was a big deal for the Japanese to be able to say they’ve achieved gender balance among the 11,000 athletes taking part. The reality of course was quite different, and there is still much that needs to be done, both on and off the playing field so to speak:

https://www.sportanddev.org/latest/news/why-most-‘gender-equal’-olympics-were-far-equal

Vic_08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691462#Comment_121691462

Since when has logic, reason and evidence ever trumped belief with true believers? Transgenderism is basically just a modern religion and it's proponents are every bit as closed-minded and intolerant of any dissenting views as all fundamentalist believers of other faiths are.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121692852#Comment_121692852

Sure the same back at ya horse, from the opposite direction, which only serves to demonstrate how utterly useless that tired rhetoric is. As Frank himself admits to - the image of sports must be maintained. How is that anything other than a decree based upon a belief? There’s no logic to it, there’s no evidence for it, and it certainly isn’t based upon reason. I wouldn’t call it a religion though because it’s not, it’s a standard informed by culture.

The dissenting view is the one which opposes a cultural standard, the one which is intolerant of the idea that it isn’t only sex that matters, that gender has no meaning or significance, and fundamentalism is dependent upon how much they demand everyone else in any given society must adhere to their ideas. Any deviation is considered heretical.

There are a minority in any society who deviate from the cultural norms perpetuated by the dominant group, they are the people who are at risk of persecution, not the people who uphold the dominant cultural narrative who seek to play the victim when other people aren’t willing to act in accordance with their beliefs.

That’s why it isn’t just people who are transgender who are impacted by the new rules and standards, but people who aren’t transgender are subjected to sex testing if there’s any suspicion raised by another athlete (and there’s no shortage of athletes willing to do so in order to eliminate their competition), in spite of the fact that the rules and standards are not supported by any scientific evidence:

The real question is how we got here. The debate and push for testosterone rules started over a decade ago, when a few within the athletics (track and field) fraternity started raising questions as to what it means to be ‘female’ and ‘a woman’ in sport. This has led to a fractious period, seemingly spearheaded by World Athletics, where, based on masculine-seeming features and good performances, women are being singled out and subjected to sex testing in order to verify their sex.

There have been claims that high testosterone occurrence mostly affects women from Africa and South Asia. There is, however, not enough scientific data at present to justify these claims. The appearance of women with high testosterone coming from these areas is likely due to more women from these regions being identified for sex testing by athletics officials. 

This raises two issues in particular around which there isn’t clarity and that have not been explored in depth. Firstly, why do testosterone levels seemingly differ among women of different racial groups and different geographic regions? Secondly, why does World Athletics refuse to share their identifying criteria for choosing certain female athletes over others when they enforce sex testing?

https://theconversation.com/olympics-namibias-sprinters-highlight-a-flawed-testosterone-testing-system-165676

Human diversity is not a thing apparently in world athletics, goes against doctrine 😒

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691534#Comment_121691534

What does any of this even mean? Pretend that sports orgs don't exist? Is anyone trying to deny that, no clue what you are going at here.

And pickleball...again, what on earth does that have to do with anything? New sports and games come into creation all the time, so what? They have rules and regulations, so what?

What does any of this have to do with the biological advantages males have over females?

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121692383#Comment_121692383

The point is that it’s not just about the figures and the facts nor any of the rest of it

...you are a windup merchant. Let's ignore the facts and go off the feelings, is it?

well24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691376#Comment_121691376

Exactly what I thought when reading through this... He doesnt seems to have any consistency in what he posts!

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121693755#Comment_121693755

They don't, they never answer questions directly, ignore facts while claiming to use facts but then says facts aren't important. It is laborious, and also hysterical watching them end up in knots.

Repo101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691214#Comment_121691214

An extremely poor argument ignoring some very basic biological facts. Performance has been tested countless of times and there are an extremely limited number of sports where women would be the equivalent of their male counterparts e.g. equestrian, archery, shooting etc and in some instances the women would be better but these are outliers. The events people are typically referring to are running, team sports (rugby, GAA, soccer etc.), swimming, cycling etc. where males have a major physical advantage over females which is unfair when someone who was born a male begins to compete against and alongside females instead of their natural birth sex. Pretending there is no evidence of this achieves nothing. If you don't want to accept basic facts then that is fine but pretending performance has 'never really' been tested is absolutely sticking your head in the sand. Almost all major US colleges have carried out studies in this area including women versus boys by Duke in which the boys outperformed women in every single category.

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121693962#Comment_121693962

This particular poster is a prime example of why you can't even reason with the modern idealogue. They are right, even when everything shows they aren't and you are a phobe/ist/nazi etc

chopperbyrne

In a thread full of ridiculous statements it might be the most ridiculous to say that male vs female athletic performance has never been tested.

To take the high jump example from earlier, if any of those men were allowed to simply self-identify as a woman, and then competed in the women's high jump, they would set a world record on their first jump. A record that would be unobtainable by any real woman.

Again, https://boysvswomen.com/#/ shows just how much teenage boys, not male Olympians, just elite high schoolers, dominate female Olympic champions.

Gentlemanne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121694031#Comment_121694031

I've read a lot of his posts and I don't think I've ever once seen him accuse another poster of being a "phobe/its/nazi". Can you show even a single example of that?

I love how the pro-trans posts always get shouted down, and their points not addressed at all or dismissed with blanket statements.

Because it's funny how it's so often juxtaposed with posts reminding us how important free speech is and how everyone is entitled to their opinion.

well24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121694129#Comment_121694129

Another post where nothing was answered / offered!

Can you state specifically what you refer to in relation to the 2nd and 3rd sentences?

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121694129#Comment_121694129

What points are not being addressed? We have claims that there is no evidence that males have a physical advantage in sports, but it has been clearly shown with masses of evidence over years that they do. Various posters have pointed this out, and anybody with a non biased/honest outlook can see it for themselves.

Yet he's not being heard? it's not a blanket statement to say that he is ignoring reality across the history of sports and all available evidence and is doubling down on an argument not based on anything. He is literally ignoring everything that doesn't suit his argument.

He might not have used these terms here but it's clearly the playbook across social media for the last few years for those arguing in favour of this.