Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

chopperbyrne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744943#Comment_121744943

(always fun when a minority has a Debate or Question ostensibly about their right to exist)

This is absolute bollocks and you know it. Who is denying anyone's right to exist? Who in this thread is calling for anyone to not exist?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744943#Comment_121744943

So true - reduxx does tend to be all about treating people as animals/subhuman alright

As an aside people are not transgendered like they are not homosexualised or disabilitied

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744961#Comment_121744961

What has any of this to do with Sports?

Just to save you from wasting time on incorrect assumptions, I am fully aware that Trans people exist. I fully support them identifying as their preferred gender.

Hopefully you can also accept medical science and agree that sex is real, that there are only two sexes. And accept the sports science that male sex athletes have a significant performance advantage over female sex athletes in most sports. As a non-medical professional can you defer to what the vast majority of medical and scientific organisations state as fact?

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744715#Comment_121744715

'Preferred' gender.

What a term.

Parkrun is great, but if they want to continue to have men and women's that aren't actually men and women's categories they need to remove those categories altogether.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745163#Comment_121745163

They are clear on their inclusive policies

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745180#Comment_121745180

Most sports organisations are. That's why none of them exclude transgender athletes.

macchoille

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745163#Comment_121745163

I think the best and possibly fairest solution is to just remove gender etc. Sure if they don’t check things , what’s to stop a 25 yo biological male declaring as a 55 yo male (or female). Massive difference in fitness between the ages too. Change the sub 17min (male) & sub 20 min (female) to just a sub 18 min, it’s a high standard but achievable by either sex.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745180#Comment_121745180

There's nothing more inclusive than removing all categories surely.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744961#Comment_121744961

So are you saying that if the current trend of medical bodies backing away from an 'affirmative model' of care for those expressing struggles with gender identity you will change your mind?

I'm glad you put "ostensibly" in there, because that is exactly how this thought-terminating cliché about 'existence' is used by gender ideology activists.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744961#Comment_121744961

What basic rights and dignities are being withheld from trans people is the question one might ask.

I think there are sub categories within the trans group. You cannot tar all with the one brush and I suppose that is the crux of the issue in debates such as this.

Quantum Erasure

https://twitter.com/scottaawilson/status/1756661681143349327

...

Gentlemanne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756270#Comment_121756270

Genuinely unbelievable if this really is based on Policy Exchange whining about 3 women with records who happen to be trans, out of 9 million members. Stop the presses 0.000003% of Parkrun members are gaming the non-competitive system.

I guess that's the point of "Think tanks" (far too generous of a title) who put all this time, €€€, and effort into shaping public opinion even if it's ideas that aren't popular or novel anymore.

The participants at the actual parkrun they interviewed seem fine with trans inclusivity, the think tank just works like right-wing black mold trying to steer everything conservative - it's not even concerned with sport specifically they just realize a big part of being right-wing these days is having a go at "gender ideology".

It's like those who only ever talk about women's rights as an anti-trans point but they're anti-abortion or they hate feminism in general. You are fooling nobody who has a brain.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756270#Comment_121756270

That's a bit thick really. The people they interviewed were not bothered. There isn't a genuine backlash at all.

jackal

Always the trans activist take is about how this affects/excludes the trans person, which is, and should be a consideration. But rarely is the other side of it considered or catered for. The fact that allowing male sex athletes to compete in female gender category sport disenfranchises all the competitors of female sex from achieving top results.

The only thing stopping it is MTF transgender athletes are generally choosing not to compete.

We can all look at marathon results and see a good amateur male athlete beating the elite professional female athletes in the same race.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761897#Comment_121761897

Parkrun is clear that they are non-competitive. Their event, their rules. No issues there. They aren't being totally constant (why gather gender and age information if it is not being used to categorise results), but they seem to be trying to get there by accepting that if they are going to be fully inclusive of transgender athletes then they need to eliminate any traces of competitiveness in gender categories.

whining about 3 women with records who happen to be trans, out of 9 million members. Stop the presses 0.000003% of Parkrun members are gaming the non-competitive system.

I'm glad you accept that the non-competitive nature of Parkrun is a key consideration here. Competitive sports would be a very different matter, as you so correctly imply here.

I'm also glad to see that you accept that it is more than possible to game a system which allows previously male athletes to self-identify into the female category. In fact, you are saying that that is exactly what is happening. Now, personally, I don't think that most transgender athletes who enter the female category are trying to game the system (unlike you). But I absolutely concur that it leaves the door wide open for that to happen unless rules are tightened up to prevent the system from being gamed by ensuring that the eligibility criteria are sufficiently tightened to prevent it.

As a non-medical professional I presume you can defer to what the vast majority of medical and scientific organisations say and accept that sex is real, that there are only two sexes. And accept the sports science that male sex athletes have a significant performance advantage over female sex athletes in most sports. And as a result, a fair way to implement sports category eligibility criteria is to definite eligibility on sex criteria, and not easily gamed gender criteria.

And by the way, if in competitive sports 0.000003% of competitors were gaming the system and cheating other competitors out of positions (at any level, elite or back of the pack, or any point in between) that is 0.000003% too many. Everyone should be entitled to fair competition. People with no idea about sports can't seem to grasp that fundamental issue.

It's like those who only ever talk about women's rights as an anti-trans point but they're anti-abortion or they hate feminism in general. You are fooling nobody who has a brain.

Nice strawman argument there. Let us know if you can point out anyone on this thread who meets those criteria. Otherwise you are fooling nobody who has a brain.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761914#Comment_121761914

And of course, it appears that the reason they appear to be not bothered, as you correctly point out, is the non-competitive nature of Parkruns. It goes without saying that competitive sports are completely different.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121763139#Comment_121763139

Now, personally, I don't think that most transgender athletes who enter the female category are trying to game the system (unlike you). But I absolutely concur that it leaves the door wide open for that to happen unless rules are tightened up to prevent the system from being gamed by ensuring that the eligibility criteria are sufficiently tightened to prevent it.

I understand the impulse to say this in the current cultural climate (or rather, online cultural climate), but I find it hard to see how someone who is not female and who is fully aware that they are not (and never will be) female competing in a female category is doing anything but gaming the system.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761897#Comment_121761897

People who think male rapists belong in women's prisons and that their victims should be forced to refer to them by their preferred pronouns in court can keep women's rights all the way out of their **** mouths.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765289#Comment_121765289

Nothing to do with the current climate. I have always believed that everyone should be entitled to live their own lives and make their own choices (Funnily enough you'd think that sounds more like Ayn Rand style right-wing philosophy than "woke") as long as it doesn't negatively affect anyone else (and as long as they are prepared to accept the consequences as well as rewards of their choices). So if someone wants to identify as a different gender to their biological sex I'll fully support them in that decision. I've thought this way for decades, and nothing in the "current climate" has altered that.

I have no problem accepting that Transgender people exist. I have no problem that a Transwoman absolutely identifies as female gender, and wants to live their life as a woman (and I'm 100% supportive of that as long as it doesn't negatively affect anyone else). It really only takes a tiny bit of understanding and empathy to understand how a transwoman would want to participate in sports in the female category, as they will more often than not have taken a lot of very difficult decisions to get themselves to the point where they are publicly identifying as a woman, and as a result, competing in the female category would seem like a natural outcome of this process. And I'd be fine with that too, IF it didn't negatively affect anyone else. But, of course, my opinion is that male-sex athletes competing in the female sex category is inherently unfair to female-sex athletes, so as a result I don't think category eligibility rules should allow this to happen. Fair competition is more fundamental to most sports than inclusivity. Fairness is fundamental, Inclusivity is an ideal. But I can totally understand how this would be very difficult for some transgender athletes to accept. I don't think the vast majority of Transgender athletes set out to game the system (to cheat).

Now clearly there are plenty of cheaters in sport. People cheat in all sorts of ways at every level of sport. So if you leave an avenue open to game the system then you can be sure that it will be exploited eventually. But that doesn't mean that everyone (or even most people) breaking the rules is doing so with malicious intent to game the system.

Anyway, in the end, we agree on the endpoint here, which is that Male sex athletes shouldn't be allowed to compete in the female sex category (where it exists) in competitive sports. I just don't need to paint the opposing side of the discussion with having malicious intend. I can empathise with and understand where the opposing argument is coming from. Generally one of the weaknesses of the TRAs on this thread (and in the real world quite often) is their inability to accept that the other side of the discussion isn't coming from an "anti-trans" agenda. I don't need or want to lower myself to that level. It's divisive (and it's intellectually weak).

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766848#Comment_121766848

To the people you're referring to, it is an anti-trans agenda, because their belief is that you either take on their faith-based belief that it is possible for a man to 'become' a woman (much less have any frame of reference for that to begin with), and say all the pronouns and all the mantras, or you are a bigot. There is no in-between.

I tend not to do wrong-sex pronouns if I can help it (which makes certain interactions somewhat ridiculous but at least honest), nor offer up the 'courtesy' of pretending I believe that men can become women (even for the <10% that have surgery and so on) on the simple basis that it's a lie. I don't care if a man wants to present himself in a stereotypically 'feminine' way or call himself Barbie or put on a fake femme voice for the rest of his days. More power to him. Men should reclaim beauty if they want to. But he doesn't stop being a man any more than my pet dog stops being a dog if I stick cat ears on him, so he doesn't belong in any female sports, changing rooms, toilets, prisons, rape crisis centres, domestic violence shelters, etc. That doesn't mean I automatically dismiss a person's claim to be struggling with their internal identity nor that I want them excluded on the basis of it, but as you've pointed out there are some situations where sex - which is real - is important. I'm not going to be a supporting actor in a play designed to bring about the destruction of my own rights, and I'm not going to apologise for it.

I'm not sure how I would call a male person "she" while at the same time objecting with a straight face to them taking part in women's sports. It seems like a halfway measure that doesn't do anything but make these issues more difficult to sort out. I wouldn't insist on anyone using my preferred language (obviously) but I would question how kind or courteous it really is to pretend to see someone as a woman because they've said they feel they are and they've 'made an effort' but then to make it obvious that you don't actually believe that at all (because if you did you would obviously think they should compete with the women).

In any case, yes we do agree on the women's sports issue. I've been quite shocked this week to see a not-insignificant number of people feel put-out by the removal of category records and times from the Park Run website. It's almost as though they actually did see it as a competition, or at least saw the competitive elements as useful.

Hamsterchops

Can't say I disagree with any of the above. As regards the swmming/sports issue, I think this year will be a pivotal year in reclaiming women's sports for women, whereby the category of woman in sport will be exclusively for women only, like it alwaus used to be 👍

Needless to say trans people need to also be fully included in sport, but just not at the expense of the fairer sex, who have lighter bones, less muscle mass, less strength less speed and much less power, plus a different pelvis (designed for giving birth) + numerous other differences that separate out men & women into two natural categories for the purpose of fairness in sport.

Lia Thomas will struggle to adapt.

El Gato De Negocios

The fairest solution is to have an open category.

Category for men.

Category for women.

Open category that men, women, trans people or any other makey uppy category they come up with can enter.

At least then, women can choose to compete against individuals with known physical advantages rather than have it foisted upon them.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.shewon.org

Don't know how accurate this is

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769557#Comment_121769557

Most sports already have two categories that are technically labeled "Women" and "Open", the latter of which anyone is allowed to compete in (though women seldom do because they are unable to be competitive against men so there's no point).

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761897#Comment_121761897

Genuinely unbelievable if this really is based on Policy Exchange whining about 3 women with records who happen to be trans, out of 9 million members. Stop the presses 0.000003% of Parkrun members are gaming the non-competitive system.

16 female records were held by males identifying as female.

Trans-identifying males had taken "first female" position more than 150 times.

Since that's more than five times more records, and 50 times more first female results than you referred to in your post, does it change your mind?

Or was it just a disingenuous and cynical attempt to "calm down dear" objectors to begin with? 💋

Vic_08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772819#Comment_121772819

Of course it doesn't change their minds, the "it's only a few, not worth bothering about" is just the argument of last resort to be wheeled out when the obvious logic chasm in the rest of the house of cards gets too difficult to defend.

Everything starts small, if men taking over women's sports is not stamped out and barred in every level it will, as it already is in some places, quickly become a viable path for any also-ran male athlete with no shame to steal their way to glory.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773357#Comment_121773357

Exactly. It might just be a few at the highest level right now, but it's happening from the bottom up so it won't stay that way for long. Here in the US many high school spots, records, and championships in female events are being taken by males. That's losing females scholarships and the ability to compete at college and elite level. If it continues, actual females will be a minority in women's sports at some point. but sure who cares about that once we don't hurt some male person's feelings 🙄

Hamsterchops

Meanwhile in the UK, the threat to women's sport continues . . . .

https://youtu.be/ef8CuEK3XD4?si=16CQWFLgeCOOWn7O

Nice friendly informative interview confirming that sport is for everyone, men, women, trans, other, everybody is welcome to take part and enjoy sport from grass roots level upwards.Only stipulation being that the women's category in particular should remain for women only, due to human biological differences between the two sexes. She says it all pretty much ...

MilkyToast

The Guardian's sports journalist, Jonathan Liew - Sportswriter of the year 2021 - on how it would be really awesome, actually, if women's sports were dominated by trans-identifying males.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781400#Comment_121781400

He's clearly an idiot now.

Women have to be sacrificed in order for the tiny minority of people to be inspired.