Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819930#Comment_121819930

Was there some other more complicated reason you have in mind for the existence of classification, beyond for the purposes of classification? You appear to be trying to turn a simple question into a more complicated answer where it’s not necessary.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820027#Comment_121820027

This.

Nevermind there are different lengths of footrace, 5k, 10k, marathons etc.

Some people wanna just do a sprint, others wanna really show off their endurance. The obtuseness comes from making this seem like a complicated issue rooted in the general dimorphism of the species, but it's not.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820027#Comment_121820027

Why have classifications? What is the reason for segregating sporting event by gender, age, weight etc?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820166#Comment_121820166

Why don't you provide your own rhetorical answer to your own rhetorical question?

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820171#Comment_121820171

How is that rhetorical? Sports ARE separated by sex, weight etc

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820189#Comment_121820189

Nobody said they weren't, that doesn't mean the user asking WHY isn't making a banal and rhetorical argument

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820194#Comment_121820194

That doesn't make any sense at all.

You clearly can't or won't answer their question so you respond with a question yourself. It is a way of sidestepping it, because you have nothing at all to challenge it.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820211#Comment_121820211

You clearly can't or won't answer their question so you respond with a question yourself.

Irony critically hits you for 3d6 damage.

I asked, "Worrying how?" and have since only been met with "why are there these categories?"

clearly can't or won't answer my question so they respond with a question themself.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820194#Comment_121820194

Why are they separated by these categories? Simple question

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820415#Comment_121820415

We've been over that all morning:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820037#Comment_121820037

Back to my original question:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121814407#Comment_121814407

Worrying how?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820166#Comment_121820166

Y’know there are some people who argue that there’s no such thing as a stupid question. I disagree, and can provide anyone who makes that claim with a considerable amount of credible and compelling evidence to refute the fundamental premise on which that claim is made. Your questions are very much in that classification, because that is what some humans like to do, and the humans that like to do that, and the humans who don’t, can also be classified into their distinct groups accordingly.

I can provide you with a whole thesis which would answer your question, but I don’t think you want me to; I think you want a simple answer to what you claim is a simple question. You got a simple answer, but it now appears you want more, that wasn’t enough, so your question was obviously more complicated in the first place than you chose to let on, and you’re still holding onto something without telling me what it is, and I can’t know what it is because I’m not a mind reader! I’m dependent upon you being candid in our exchanges, which you haven’t been so far. Which is fine, that is entirely your prerogative, just as it is mine to point out that I have given you an answer to the question you asked. Claiming after the fact, that I couldn’t answer your question, would simply be untrue.

For what it’s actually worth, by way of demonstrating the concept then, the measurement of Intelligence Quotient, because it’s something which I’m interested in. It’s intangible and all the rest of it, but this is for the purposes of demonstration only. I’m dumb as a box of rocks, and I know I’m dumb as a box of rocks. How do I know? Because when my IQ was measured it was so low I’d be ashamed to admit it on a public forum. I’m put in a specific classification, and that’s done, recorded for all posterity. So then one asks - who’s at the other end? Well, I did, because I’m not averse to asking stupid questions of myself at least. So looking at who’s at the other end, it’s a woman named Marilyn vos Savant -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_vos_Savant

When someone of Marilyn’s IQ is of the opinion that IQ tests which are an attempt to measure IQ are useless, one would have to trust that she knows what she’s talking about -

Savant sees IQ tests as measurements of a variety of mental abilities and thinks intelligence entails so many factors that "attempts to measure it are useless".

And that’s wonderful if you really care about that sort of thing, I mean you’d really have to care about it so much that you build a whole identity around it for yourself, and measure yourself against other people, and it becomes something of an obsession, an unhealthy obsession even, and classify yourself according to how you measure up. Intelligence and intellect are interesting concepts, but I’m not obsessed with them.

I’m far more interested in being able to write a post that doesn’t read like it was written by ChatGPT, or being able to communicate an anecdote like Kate Beckinsale. I’m not sure the fact she has an IQ of 152, studied French and Russian so she could read the classics in their original language, attended at Oxford to broaden her horizons before going into acting, carries a pantomime horse in her luggage, and is a notorious practical joker makes her a person I admire when there are so many different facets to any individual:

https://youtu.be/n5lfjyiCAFQ?si=74Lv4gb8w1TBgBdb

And yet, yet, in spite of all that which makes her an incredibly interesting person, there’s at least one idiot that we now know of, who has an unhealthy obsession with her genitals -

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/kate-beckinsale-claps-back-russian-181042835.html

He can be classified in any number of ways IMO, none of them particularly complimentary 😒

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820220#Comment_121820220

I really can't understand what it is you are even trying to say at this stage...

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820569#Comment_121820569

I forgive you, I wasn't asking you anyway.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820578#Comment_121820578

Who said you were? You are in a public forum.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820602#Comment_121820602

Who said it was not a public forum?

"To take up another standpoint is worrying from any point of view."

You liked the post, maybe you can explain how it is worrying? Maybe you cannot?

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820643#Comment_121820643

Christ, this tactic is childish. Just keep asking question so avert addressing the actual point of the thread.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820668#Comment_121820668

More questions...

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820554#Comment_121820554

There's been a few posts you've written here, at great effort by yourself in fairness, that I literally haven't had a clue at how to address, so apologies if I haven't addressed them. I really don't know where to start on this one also.

I am "worried" that certain people, skirt questions, display no grasp of logic, behave in an obtuse manner and have some irrational views of the world they live in.

Why does this worry me? Assuming we take everything at face value, if a person displays those same traits in their "real life" they could end up getting hurt (emotionally), confused, dejected and have unrealistic expectations of the world. If are careers for other people or have influence upon them, they may also end up in a similiar position. They are not nice places to be. Indeed if there are enough of this type of person in the world who make decisions that effect my or my families lives, you'd have to be concerned.

In relation to my line of questions - they are simply an effort to unpack the variables at play here.

If you asert that most sports are just "for fun" you have to ask, why are most sports seperated by gender in the first instance? To suggest "thats nothing to do with me" is to completely avoid the main core of issues as is being discussed here.

Why do categories exist in sport is another such linked question. If you think its just for the sake of having a category without addressing the rationale for having categories in the first instance you completly skirt around the core concerns being addressed in this thread and the ONLY reason you chose to do this is because the answer doesn't suit your narrative/standpoint. Thats the only conclusion I personally come to - and I have yet to be shown why this isn't the case.

There was something you posted a few posts ago with the line:

"How many transgender athlete restrictions in the US do you reckon were introduced since 2020 to protect women's sports from detriment? I like to look at the pictures:"

With the graphs showing an increasing number of states bringing in "restrictions" on trans athletes.

Why do you think these restrictions were put in place and why do you think there are more states doing this?

You suggest its "trans panic" - but maybe I am incorrect in that read.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820770#Comment_121820770

not really, just the same question, still avoided. I’m told that’s very telling around here.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820775#Comment_121820775

Why does this worry me? Assuming we take everything at face value, if a person displays those same traits in their "real life" they could end up getting hurt (emotionally), confused, dejected and have unrealistic expectations of the world. If are careers for other people or have influence upon them, they may also end up in a similiar position. They are not nice places to be. Indeed if there are enough of this type of person in the world who make decisions that effect my or my families lives, you'd have to be concerned.

Textbook example of a moral panic.

ceadaoin.

it must have been a "moral panic" that brought about women's sports in the first place then according to some people on here. Those silly women, wanting to have what men had and to compete on a level playing field without fear of injury or exclusion from winning. If only they listened to the men telling them they were being silly and they were just having a moral panic about competing against males then we wouldn't be in this situation now.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821002#Comment_121821002

Uhm, not sure what you're raving about but there was plenty of 'moral panic' about everything from suffrage to the advent of womens leagues.

https://thesportjournal.org/article/a-history-of-women-in-sport-prior-to-title-ix/

eg.

Efforts to limit women’s sport activity continued as they became more involved in competitive sports. This paper will present a history of women’s involvement in sport prior to the federal legislation enacted to eliminate sexual discrimination in education and sport.

Own goal?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121820775#Comment_121820775

Indeed if there are enough of this type of person in the world who make decisions that effect my or my families lives, you'd have to be concerned.

I’ve no doubt it must have occurred to you at some point that those same people you’re referring to view you in the same way as you view them. That’s why while I’m conscious of their existence, I’m not the least bit concerned for my own or my families lives. That’s me though, obviously you feel differently.

In relation to my line of questions - they are simply an effort to unpack the variables at play here.

I get that much, but ‘why do classifications exist?’, really?

If you asert that most sports are just "for fun" you have to ask, why are most sports seperated by gender in the first instance? To suggest "thats nothing to do with me" is to completely avoid the main core of issues as is being discussed here.

Well I didn’t assert that, but I can understand why someone would, and I can understand why someone else would disagree. There’s no necessity to ask why are most sports separated by gender in the first instance, as though it follows from the idea that most sports are just for fun.

One of the reasons why young people are dropping out of sports at the rate they are is because sports just aren’t fun for them any more. That tends to happen in sports where the stakes get much higher as they progress through the levels - some people respond well to the increase in intensity, the majority just decide when an activity isn’t fun for them any more, it’s time to stop. Others stop when they’re just not getting anything out of it, or they simply lose interest and are no longer motivated.

To suggest that permitting biological males to participate and compete in competition with biological females would lead to the detriment of women’s sports, ignores the reality of a whole multitude of factors that you’ve not considered because you haven’t gotten beyond asking ‘why do classifications exist?’ yet. Some people avoid the core, you’re only scratching around the surface.

But just for fun, you’re better off reading this report and addressing the concerns in it if the welfare of women participating in sports is something which is a real concern to you. I feel it’s only fair to warn you, it makes for grim reading:

https://www.gaelicplayers.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/FEMALE-SNAPSHOT-FINAL-1.pdf

Some weapon on the far side of the Atlantic who has access to the media most women will only ever dream of, and has an opportunity to make a real impact in women’s sports and promoting women in women’s sports, and yet she appears to be far more interested in drawing attention to biological males in women’s sports? To each their own I guess 😒

Why do categories exist in sport is another such linked question. If you think its just for the sake of having a category without addressing the rationale for having categories in the first instance you completly skirt around the core concerns being addressed in this thread and the ONLY reason you chose to do this is because the answer doesn't suit your narrative/standpoint. Thats the only conclusion I personally come to - and I have yet to be shown why this isn't the case.

That IS the rationale for categories though - classification, by whatever arbitrary criteria the organisers of the competition wish to apply. The core concerns are yours, based upon classification which you believe should apply. Other posters, such as myself, disagree that such classification is necessary. I’ve been very clear on that much, even to the point where I find myself using language I wouldn’t normally use to describe anything, let alone another human being. It’s true, your narrative doesn’t suit me, and your insistence on applying it is the reason you come to the conclusion that you personally have come to, where you pretend that I haven’t shown you why this is the case numerous times now.

Unlike a few posters have done on this thread, I’m not going to declare I have better things to be doing than having this discussion with you. If I did, I’d be doing them and you wouldn’t even know, so there’s little point in getting worried about things that are simply beyond your control.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821011#Comment_121821011

But now you label the women and others who support females having their own sports league free of male people as the the ones having the "moral panic". But back then they were in the right were they? (According to you I mean, all of us rational people know full well that males shouldn't be competing against females, regardless of their gender identity. Not then and not now either).

Perhaps if you were around back then you would have had a problem with the idea of female only leagues just like you do now? Certainly would be consistent with your current views anyway. Why do you think females campaigned for their own events? Maybe they were anti male bigots, or is there a scientific, measurable reason why male and female sports are separate? If so, why do you think females should now have to compete against males?

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819860#Comment_121819860

There are age brackets for the over 40's and beyond, typically for athletes beyond their peak, a 40 year old can compete against 30 year olds but the 30 year old wouldn't compete in the over 40's competition (anecdotally, an old teacher of mine won the over 40's and 50's Dublin marathon competitions a number of times). Golf has the PGA Tour Champions for older players, occasionally there will be crossovers. Soccer has all sorts of leagues for older people.

sekiro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819968#Comment_121819968

Honestly, I think you are just wasting time and effort engaging with certain people on this topic.

Sports are demonstrably not "just a bit of fun" for people who are very invested in them. Certainly when prize money and sponsorships are at stake being involved professionally in sports is a valid, challenging and rewarding career.

Sure, who cares that a 15 year old girl with aspirations of being a professional player at Liverpool or Manchester United has her dreams destroyed by a crunching tackle from an individual who was playing for the boys team less than a year ago. Sure, it's just a children's football game, it's all a bit of fun!

A big problem for young girls with dreams of becoming professional sportswomen is that there's an endless stream of people desperate to brush what's going on at the grassroots level under the carpet. The gender category is absolutely being blurred and this can be the difference between a young girl finishing 2nd in a race and finishing 3rd. Not a big deal for perpetually online denizens of the internet whose dreams have long since fallen off a cliff but actually a big deal for a young lady who has worked hard and trained hard and dreamed big.

The truth is that we won't see proper backlash on this issue until it's taking place on the world stage in front of massive audiences. When people start seeing women's champions who have a career backstory that they competed unsuccessfully at the men's level for a few years before making the transition to women's sports.

For now we just have to look on as young girls have their hard work and training undermined and weird guys on the internet can't just accept that they've lost an argument so they boil sporting endeavor down to "ah sure it's just a bit of fun".

sekiro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121821178#Comment_121821178

The age brackets are there in much the same way as gender brackets are there.

It's a rare 50 or 60 year old who is going to compete with athletes in their prime and, since everybody knows that, it can make things interesting if race organizers offer up a competition for those older members.

If you removed the gender category then, in the vast majority of sports, you would never see a female champion. Without the women's category Irish girls never get their Katie Taylor. Some people, however, seem to think that if you just mixed the genders in boxing the ladies would be able to step up and beat the guys.

sekiro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121801129#Comment_121801129

No, because trans women are women.

Putting them in their own category implies that there is some way in which they are not like those other women.

Validating someone's identity is a vital part of this entire thing that's going on. It's not about what people may have done previously where you might go along with something for the sake of a friend, colleague or family member who is obviously going through some stuff. You might agree to use their new name and not be an ass about their new clothing choices or make-up or whatever.

The modern way is that you absolutely must believe it in your very bones that anyone who says they are a women absolutely is a woman. So why would we need a transgender category? This new individual on the women's swimming team, who was on the men's swimming team last year, is a woman because they say that they are.

Having a trans category is basically having a nod to the idea that there is something somehow different between women and transwomen.

OrangeBadger

I think basketball would be the most entertaining sport to watch with a few trans women, 6'8 stud male college basketball player transitions and scores 120 points per game

Luxxis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823337#Comment_121823337

There's a clear difference in the biology of males and females. Is someone decides to become a trans woman the biological differences don't disappear. Giving them an advantage in almost all sports. You call validate them, believe they are women all you want to. But the biology wont change.

If we "believe in your very bones" we are ignoring the reality of the situation. I, for one, am not prepared to do that.