Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446012#Comment_118446012

The destruction of woman's sports is appealing to alot of the activists involved.

There is a often a raw current of misogyny in this.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445996#Comment_118445996

I know that.

I even said it my op that Henig is transitioning female to male.

But, as he has yet to begin any hormone treatment his body is the same as any biologically female body.

Something people here can't quite seem to grasp.

The transgender woman was beaten by someone with a biologically female body who happens to be transitioning into a man.

Both of them athletes for Ivy League colleges even before they transitioned so hardly proof that average bloke could beat best woman.

I confess. I'm highly amused.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446103#Comment_118446103

Elite female athletes are matched by 14/15 year old schoolboys.

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446103#Comment_118446103

You should be amused enough to educate yourself, Men are on average 10% better than females at the top level of athletics, to argue otherwise is lunacy.

Men should not compete against women in sports that require strength and stamina, the recent event where a man beat a woman to a pulp in combat sports should have been a wake up call to women who actually care about other women health but it seems the extremists will go to any lengths to prove women are the equal of men in sports which they certainly are not, compete in intellectual endeavours against men as that is fair on women but stay away from allowing men that transition to women to compete with biological women who are at a very big disadvantage.

Do you actually think that a top elite sportswoman who transitions to a man can actually compete with elite men?

Can you show me a world record in sport where a woman has a better time than a man?

Can you even show me where they would be in the same category taking into account the 100m world records on track are approx 1 second apart, the 200 meters approx 2 seconds apart and the marathon are 16 minutes apart?

Jequ0n

Of course you are amused, OP. The only thing you are achieving with this thread is keeping the whole endless debate on transgender rights alive.

I am sure there are a lot of people who can’t ever accept the concept that trans people exist, but a lot do. What is really, really tiring is having the issue rubbed in your face all the time, as if it is a priority that mankind needs to fix asap. For the vast majority of people this is not a burning issue, and this continuous lecturing is nothing but tedious.

As usual this thread follows the trend of attack and counter attack (this isn’t aimed at the OP, but people in general), so I am not sure how this will achieve anything but traffic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446012#Comment_118446012

I'd go one step further.

Even if it were physically possible to literally adjust a biological man's body so that it was indistinguishable from a biological female's body, that person should still not be allowed to enter the women's competition simply because they're not biological women.

If we start to debate physical ability etc., we lose perspective on the much bigger picture that biological males have no place in biological female's sports - irrespective of what they identify as, and irrespective of what their "lung capacity" happens to be etc.

generic_throwaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445526#Comment_118445526

If you went ahead with full sexual reassignment surgery to do so, your argument might actually carry some weight. I wonder how many male athletes around the world care enough about winning something at some level (as a woman) that they will go ahead and lop off their penis and balls?

Would you think quite a few? Or maybe not so many?

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446376#Comment_118446376

Where are the attacks?

I have seen facts being presented to the OP who has ignored them to suit her own beliefs.

We have seen golf give exemptions to women golfers to play in mens tournaments but it never took off, why?

Melanchthon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446103#Comment_118446103

Is his body the same as any female body? As in apparently they haven't legally transitioned, what other changes have occurred? E.g surgical , what's the hormonal regime they are on that won't necessarily trigger the governing rules

Isn't it a bit weird that the only person to beat the MtoF athlete is a FtoM

greyday

For the OP, I truly believe women are better than men in a whole range of things in everyday life, Sport is just one where the facts prove this is not the case.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446103#Comment_118446103

Hang on - headline says "transgender man wins..." - but Henig lost...? Or am I misunderstanding?

EDIT - I am, apologies, I thought Thomas had won as it was her name in the headlines and photos on the links)

ctrl-alt-delete

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444294#Comment_118444294

Yes, but beat a man that wants to be a woman I think.

It will get messy when we have mixed relay team's, whilst also bringing new meaning to passing the baton.

plodder

The gender complication here shows why it makes more sense to talk in terms of sex. A natal (sex) woman was faster than a natal (sex) man. There is nothing unusual about that.

I'm a man who used to be a middle of the pack runner. Though in some mass participation races I'd have been in the top third of male finishers, but I never ran a race where I wasn't beaten by many women. So, it means nothing that a natal woman can beat a natal man. There is a significant overlap between male and female performance. The performance difference between men and women is most obvious at the top level.

Harryd225

Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

😂😂😂

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446680#Comment_118446680

This is true but has little bearing on the topic, elite women or even women in the top 10% of their sport are more than capable of beating men that are in the 20-40% category of their sport, at top level this is not the case.

In combat sports you will find the same but the damage done to a woman can and if they continue on this path will end in the loss of life of a woman to a man that has transitioned.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446726#Comment_118446726

It simply doesn't matter.

Even if the stats were evened out, is it justifiable for a biological male to take the place of a biological female in a women's competition - when that woman may have been training for decades to get that position?

That's the real question here; the real damage to women's sport begins at this fundamental, foundational point.

As I've said before, trans- activists raise the "advantage" question as a red herring to avoid the above biological reality (which they are unable to debate against).

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446738#Comment_118446738

That's fair enough.

Bannasidhe

Every single time transgender women participating in any women's event is, and I use the term loosely, debated in this forum the sudden concern for women's sports is overwhelming.

Even the blasted Rose of Tralee thread.

Some of that concern is genuine, but some is but but "men will always beat women on a level playing field and I might get banned for this but ya can't change biological so this will mean the end of women's sports ".

The assumption being talent, skill, training, technique are meaningless.

Well, here we have Lia Thomas, an elite athlete ( I am sure someone will want to argue that US Ivy League Colleges are not represented by elite athletes) who competed pre-transition as a male, and post- transition,following hormone treatment, this athlete competed very successfully in women's events.

In a recent prestigious swim meet this transgender woman athlete was beaten by a competitor who is 100% still biologically female.

There have been a few oh but what did the winner take/do to give them a (manly) edge comments.

It's in the article. No hormones have been taken by Henig. Zero. Nada. None. Henig had a double mastectomy- as have many female athletes for various reasons yet we haven't seen them win a plethora of victories.

Henig identifies as male but has yet to begin hormonal transition. Therefore under the rules Henig is still technically female.

Thomas identifies as female and has been taking hormones fir several years.

Henig beat Thomas. Twice.

greyday

Will you please show me a world record in sport that a woman has which is better than a mans?

The exception does not prove the rule.

I am left with the impression you are happy enough for a man that has transitioned to beat a woman to a pulp to suit your beliefs/wants.

You will not be remembered well in time when when the gullible realise the evidence was there but you championed the killing of women by transitioned men, JMHO.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446779#Comment_118446779

What part of "it doesn't matter if men beat women or vice versa" don't you understand?

It's not about advantage.

It's simple reality: that biological males, irrespective of how they identify, should not compete with biological females.

No matter how much you try to ignore this reality; it is the reality.

Trying to divert everyone down the rabbit hole of genetics and hormone levels etc. won't, and will never, undermine the above.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445925#Comment_118445925

Point I was trying to make was that the majority of males in general would have little chance in beating a professional female boxer; purely because they've had no boxing (or perhaps any kind of fighting) training.. There are rules after all 😊 It would be a boxing match in my hypothetical scenario; not a brawl....

I don't/wasn't disputing the fact that even a journeyman in their own category would give either of the two females mentioned, a hammering in the ring.. I thought I was affirming said point. Maybe I gave the ladies too much credit perhaps, and even a chap (in the correct weight division) with 6 months training would win at a greater rate than the 2/3s that I notionally credited them with 😋

Sandor Clegane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446779#Comment_118446779

This is the sort of pretzel logic that you end up with when you have convinced yourself that transwomen are literally women. It is nonsensical, and doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, and no one outside of a small echo chamber buys it. A particular trans identifying male getting beaten by a natal female is irrelevant. You may as well argue that because Serena Williams can beat 99.9% of males at tennis, tennis should not be sex segregated.

The issue is really quite simple:

There are separate categories for women's sports because males have a biological advantage over females.

No amount of hormone treatments or testosterone reduction fully removes this advantage, as males will always benefit from having gone through male puberty. They retain advantages from testosterone the same way a doper retains advantages from having trained while on steroids, and then stopping the steroids for competition testing. Males also benefit from inherent body differences.

To allow any category of males compete in the women's categories, completely undermines why women's categories exist in the first place. It would destroy women's and girl's sports.

But knock yourself out and campaign away for trans identifying males to be allowed compete against women. The latest surveys by the trans advocacy groups in America revealed that it was the single biggest issue with the public and that it was counter-productive to their cause, and they advised rolling back on campaigning for it. The vast majority of the public do not believe that trans identifying males are literally female, and sports is the area where this gets highlighted. When the public have their eyes opened up to this reality, they next ask themselves, should male rapists really be locked up with female rape victims? Should those rape victims also have to share shelters with males? The whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446957#Comment_118446957

Gee.

Such wordy telling me what I am apparently doing.

As if posting on boards.ie is "campaigning".

For all your wordy, and that of those who share your opinion, the results of the races remain the same.

Transgender woman alledgedly have an advantage, Thomas was beaten by someone who did not possess this alleged advantage. Someone who was a faster swimmer in those two races.

A fair and square victory.

Ascribe all the imaginary reasons I started the thread all you wish but the fact remains that all my posts are commenting on the fact that this so called advantage didn't happen.

But sure it's easier to have a go at the OP then explain what happened to the alledged advantage transgender women athletes have that apparently will mean the end of women's sport.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118447081#Comment_118447081

Males, as a group, have an advantage over females. One particular female being faster than a particular male is irrelevant. The same way that the fact that Katie Taylor being able to box the head off me, doesn't alter the fact that males, on average have an advantage over females. This is basic statistics and logic. That you have found yourself trying to argue that a female beating a male somehow proves that males don't have an advantage shows the insanity of your position.

You need to ask yourself, why are there separate sports categories for women and girls? When you are able to understand and answer that question honestly, you will understand how ridiculous and untenable your position is.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118447081#Comment_118447081

But sure it's easier to have a go at the OP then explain what happened to the alleged advantage transgender women athletes have that apparently will mean the end of women's sport.

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/under-scrutiny-in-routine-final-home-meet-penns-lia-thomas-wins-twice/

In the pool, a strong season continued for Thomas. She won the 200 free in 1:48.73, nearly nine seconds short of her season-best.

Thomas finished sixth in the women’s 100 free in 52.84. The win went to Izzi Henig in 49.57, within .15 seconds of Thomas’s pool record from the fall season.

After the break, Thomas won the 500 free in 4:57.20, just 1.47 seconds quicker than teammate Catherine Buroker in a Penn 1-2-3 finish. It was 22 seconds off Thomas’s best time this season.

Thomas anchored Penn’s A 400 free relay with a split of 51.94; [over 2.5 seconds off her best] she dove in third, and the team finished third. (Her split was slower than all four legs of Yale’s A squad, which won in 3:42.76.

also probably worth mentioning, Lia may be targeting longer race distances, compared to Iszac

ISZAC HENIG

50-yard freestyle: 22.59

100-yard freestyle: 48.90

200-yard freestyle: 1:47.39

500-yard freestyle: 4:49.85

https://yalebulldogs.com/sports/womens-swimming-and-diving/roster/iszac-henig/17380

LIA THOMAS

50-yard freestyle: 22.78

100-yard freestyle: 49.42

200-yard freestyle: 1:41.93

500-yard freestyle: 4:34.06

1000-yard freestyle: 9:35.96

1650-yard freestyle: 15:59.71

https://pennathletics.com/sports/2019/11/14/womens-swimming-top-times.aspx

fritzelly

Why is this even big news except maybe for some illogical reason that there is no reason why trans woman cannot compete in women's tournaments

patnor1011

Trans woman should compete in trans woman tournaments. Trans man in trans man tournaments. Problem solved.

piplip87

Could it be that in this case the best swimmer won. Now be interesting when they transition how will they get on against biological males ?

You can identify as anything you want to identify as but when it comes to sports either have a trans Olympics or compete against your own sex..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118447081#Comment_118447081

The problem is that you believe, fervently and with an almost religious fervour, that biological males (who identify as 'women') should be allowed to compete with biological women. That they are the same category of person; that women must welcome biological males to join them in competitions.

As long as that faith-based position is held, nobody can or will take your arguments seriously.

And no amount of "empathy" can change these facts.