Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

ProfessorPlum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950345#Comment_121950345

https://x.com/i_heart__bikes/status/1772805467506421969?s=20

This one?

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950575#Comment_121950575

"Assigned at birth" implies that before birth, it is not possible to know the biological sex of the developing foetus.

Of course, that's another falsehood echoed by those who care only about furthering their own ideological obsession. We understand perfectly well what sex the foetus develops into. It's a non-negotiable reality. It cannot be argued away, however much they try to crowbar nonsense into this manufactured debate.

I actually disagree with others who say it's akin to a religion. It's not religious because there is no higher authority.

But that said, it's a cult.

And like all cults, it weaves together a stream of irrational beliefs in the furtherance of what they believe to be a good and righteous cause. Not everyone, of course, but the activists and those who side with activists.

The idea that biological males should be allowed to compete in women's sport, that women should effectively be told by biological males to "stay in their place", wreaks not only of cult-like delusion but also a quite disgusting level of misogyny, gaslighting, and outright contempt for women's rights.

All I can say is thank goodness society is waking up to this flagrant assault on women's rights (albeit slower than I would have liked).

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950940#Comment_121950940

that’s the one, thank you!!!

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950675#Comment_121950675

That particular condition only affects people with xy chromosomes, aka males.

Caster Semenya is 100% biological male and 0% female, and has testes which produce this "high level of testosterone" aka normal levels for a man

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950500#Comment_121950500

Yes I saw all that, but the part I was specifically referring to was guidance about the establishment of a task force (task group, I misquoted earlier), and legal counsel, or a legal affairs officer, being conspicuous by it’s absence:

I did mention at the time that the role may be otherwise fulfilled; depends really upon the size of the organisation, structure and governance (a discussion beyond the scope of this thread - https://www.rdj.ie/insights/time-to-tackle-legal-liabilities-of-unincorporated-sporting-associations), but while larger Irish sports organisations will already be lawyered up, smaller organisations may not, and they might be misled by members of the organisation who imagine declaring something like this means they’ve got it sewn up:

Only sex-based categories.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950714#Comment_121950714

It just confirms what everyone who has any involvement in sport knows.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950615#Comment_121950615

It was neither unintended nor inadvertent given the WA wrote an entirely separate policy document relating to athletes with DSDs. Caster Semenya’s exclusion from specific events is because she refuses to take the meds which are intended to lower her testosterone levels. Numerous reasons for refusing to take the medication, but primarily because she views the policy as discriminatory:

https://www.reuters.com/sports/athletics/semenya-says-discrimination-verdict-was-long-time-coming-2023-07-12/

https://worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=2ffb8b1a-59e3-4cea-bb0c-5af8b690d089.pdf&urlslug=C3.6A%2520%25E2%2580%2593%2520Eligibility%2520Regulations%2520for%2520the%2520Female%2520Classification%2520%25E2%2580%2593%2520effective%252031%2520March%25202023

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951434#Comment_121951434

She can view it as discriminatory all she likes - biological males taking hormones currently only have to reduce testosterone levels to ten times that of a biological woman.

So even with medication, they have ten times the effects - muscle mass and power being just two. To put females on that level would require drugs that would have them banned for doping.

Yet one more reason why biological males do NOT belong in women’s sports.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951457#Comment_121951457

Biology most definitely does not work like that. It’s one of the reasons why Semenya refuses to take the medication - because there’s simply no way of knowing how it will interact with her physiology, neither it’s short-term, or long-term effects.

“I had to sacrifice myself to be the best that I am. There were days when I lived in the dark. Days where I didn’t want to wake up,” she remembers. “Those are the things that people don’t understand when World Athletics says: ‘Take this medication.’ **** them. Thosemotherfuckers must go take the medication themselves, then tell us how they feel.” She names both IAAF/World Athletics president Sebastian Coe, whom she calls “this idiot”, and the organisation’s health and science department director Dr Stéphane Bermon. “They’ll say: ‘Oh, these medications were well supervised.’ **** it – they don’t know **** about that.”

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/28/athlete-caster-semenya-interview-im-a-woman-im-a-different-woman

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951480#Comment_121951480

I have a reply about not knowing the long term effect of hormones but it would be slightly off topic so I will refrain and echo the previous poster and no longer engage as it’s achieving nothing.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951506#Comment_121951506

I have a fair idea what you have in mind, and I’d agree with you, which is why Semenya has taken her case as far as it will go to the ECHR - any outcome will not benefit her career personally at this point, but it will be the athletes who come after her will benefit from a decision which could force WA and other sports organisations to revise their policies. Probably not her children though as she doesn’t intend to allow them to compete in athletics:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/caster-semenya-bbc-sebastian-coe-world-athletics-b2443806.html

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951367#Comment_121951367

Only sex-based categories.

Yes, there are three options there, and "sex based categories" is only one of them. But, it's good to see that sex based categories have official backing now.

And in that context, they point out:

However, there are also options for trans
people to participate in sex based categories. There have
already been examples of transgender women competing
successfully in male sport, and transgender men competing
in female sport, and non-binary people in the category of
their birth.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951586#Comment_121951586

The point being that simply declaring adherence to sex-based categories, official recognition by Sports Ireland being neither here nor there, exemptions in the Equal Status Acts have always permitted exemptions in Irish Law:

Gender, age, disability and/or race/nationality 

The Acts allow people to be treated differently on the grounds of age, disability, and/or race/nationality in relation to:

• Sporting events, where the Acts allow people to be treated differently on the basis of their gender, age, disability or nationality in relation to providing or organising sporting facilities or events but only if the differences are reasonably necessary and are relevant;

https://www.ihrec.ie/guides-and-tools/human-rights-and-equality-in-the-provision-of-good-and-services/what-does-the-law-say/exceptions/

Imagining solely on the basis of one members opinion that it’s all sewn up, would be what’s misleading, and an organisation would be well advised to be aware of the legal implications involved for themselves and their organisation, which is what Sports Ireland obviously intended to do with that guidance document on policy development.

plodder

At least it's not as bad yet here as it is in Australia. Here's one part of a leaked conversation from the Twitter thread below. It's about the lesbian(*) soccer club that won all their games in a tournament recently (with five biologically male players).

'A couple of years ago one of the Flying Bats players broke one of our players legs in two places. She’s no longer playing football. As a small club I’ve lost 24 players and that’s a direct result of not wanting to play against the Flying Bats.'

So, that all happened 'a couple of years ago' but went under the radar, women "quiet quitting" presumably because kicking up a fuss is only going to cause trouble for those left behind, as you can see in the thread itself. Clubs that forfeit games for safety reasons are being punished, and if there is evidence of concerted action, then that is to be treated as "discrimination", a very serious matter presumably.

https://twitter.com/JohnRuddick2/status/1773170025710657816

(*) Note the added twist there. A lesbian women's soccer team presumably implies the trans women are physically attracted to women, an added bonus that the women have to deal with. It explains why the strongest objections to this stuff comes from lesbian women.

greyday

Ciara Kelly has an article in todays Independent that makes interesting reading.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952597#Comment_121952597

That’s deeply disturbing to read. For the longest time there have been vile bigots who will tell lesbians they just need the right “d***”; there is an abhorrent “custom” in some parts of the world where “corrective rape” is practiced, sickening. Lesbians are marginalised doubly, for both their sex and their sexuality.

Yet now a sports team made up of lesbian women has half the side be biologically male and lesbian only venues such as clubs, speed dating events etc see violent protests unless they admit biological men.

How much homophobia and bigotry are we expecting these gay women to endure!?

ceadaoin.

There was a video posted here a while back of a male high school basketball player injuring a female during a match. Allegedly this person has been working their way through various girls sports and was even kicked off a rowing team for perving on girls in the changing room. Scroll down the Twitter thread and you'll see an non pixellated picture of this "girl", complete with a goatee, looking quite please with themself. How can this be defended?

https://twitter.com/MailOnline/status/1775408569493373273

(I await the wordy post about how actually, some women have beards,and one time a woman somewhere perved on other women so therefore this whole charade is fine and normal 🙄 Never mind the dick, balls and male strength. Irrelevant! )

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970914#Comment_121970914

But that never happens…. 😉😉😉

greyday

Eoin o Malley has a good article in the independent today.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970914#Comment_121970914

How can this be defended?

There’s nothing to defend there only this bit:

The student competed for a private rowing club in Massachusetts in 2021-22, before an alleged 'direct case of harassment' in her team's changing rooms.

 The March 20 report to the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee by Republican Senator Bill Cassidy used male pronouns for the student.

'The male athlete was caught staring openly at one of the female athletes while she changed her clothes in the women’s locker room and remarked, "oooh t*tties!"' it read.

'When a female athlete nearby asked if it was the first time he had seen female breasts, the male responded, "uhh yeah" with a laugh. The male athlete was suspended for this incident.'

The report also claimed she 'caused many issues for the female athletes' on the team and they avoided using the locker room because of her.

And nobody is defending that kind of behaviour. Anyone engaging in that kind of behaviour should be kicked off the team, regardless of their sex or gender or whatever else. I’d presume the same rule applies to all players equally.

Moopsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121987194#Comment_121987194

Women don't this, we simply don't behave like this and gay women are included here. I am a gay woman with lesbian friends and we just get along with things normally. We don't act like the male in this incident because we are female.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121987938#Comment_121987938

And if you were the only lesbian in the village, I’d take your word for it. You’re not though, and the reason I know that is because throughout my life I’ve known plenty of women, not a great proportion of them lesbian I’ll admit, but just like most men, I already know most women don’t engage in that sort of behaviour either. It’s only a tiny minority of individuals who do, and the behaviour has nothing to do with their sex or sexuality, it’s just creepy as fcuk.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121987978#Comment_121987978

I'm not lesbian, and have done sport at various levels throughout my life, and I can say I have NEVER come across that behaviour from a woman. EVER.

Men though? Regularly. That's why it's inevitable that if males are allowed into what are supposed to be female spaces, rates of sexual assault will rise. Because it's a masculine behaviour. Not all males, sure, but enough of them to be a fact of life for all women.

So anyone who supports that is actively enabling abuse of women. They should just be honest about that and stop pretending it's not the case.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988051#Comment_121988051

I’m not a lesbian either (do we really have to start saying that now? 🤨), and I’m not a woman either, and I’ve done sports at various levels throughout my life, and never experienced it from either men or women in in sports at least. I’m not so wrapped up in my own world though that I’m not aware of other people who have been victims of sexual abuse in sports at the hands of both male and female perpetrators.

It’s most certainly not ‘a masculine behaviour’, and certainly not enough of them to be a fact of life for anyone, regardless of their sex. That’s why it’s generally regarded as repulsive when it does happen, to anyone regardless of their sex or sexual orientation or any other characteristics. That’s why it’s not the case that anyone should be dishonest and agree with you when they know what you’re declaring as fact simply isn’t true, and nobody is required to rely on anecdotal evidence based solely upon their own individual experiences or lack thereof, to make that point either:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988144#Comment_121988144

And that has been widely noted as being due to the ridiculous notion of recording male sex crimes by those “identified” as female as female crimes.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988144#Comment_121988144

Thanks for that. A man telling me that young women aren't regularly harrassed or targetted by men when out in public.

Lucky you're there to put us women right.

FFS

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988202#Comment_121988202

No problem, I’d tell you the same if you were a man coming out with that kind of fearmongering BS. A small minority of Feminists tried it a couple of years ago with the whole ‘rape culture’ nonsense, got nowhere, because it simply couldn’t be taken seriously. I wouldn’t just expect you to take my word for it though, try the largest organisation in the US, part of whose mission is to inform the public about sexual violence and rape and dispel the politically, socially and culturally motivated myths:

https://time.com/30545/its-time-to-end-rape-culture-hysteria/

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988281#Comment_121988281

Jesus that’s a new low, the misogyny dripping from this post.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988199#Comment_121988199

Widely noted by whom? It hasn’t been widely noted at all, because it’s largely ignored. There was an attempt by a group in the UK to make the claim you’re making alright when recent figures were released of a rise in the number of female perpetuators (that is, reported by the victim as female, not just recorded as female), but the group were obviously trying to mislead people at the time:

Between 2015 and 2019, the numbers of reported cases of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse to police in England and Wales rose from 1,249 to 2,297 - an increase of 84%.

…

Up to 16% of those abused in residential care and 6% of those abused in other institutional contexts such as schools, sports and religious settings said female perpetrators were involved, according to data from victim reports to the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA)

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55338745.amp

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121988288#Comment_121988288

I don't know whether OEJ is aware of the origins of his belief that women are as likely to be sex offenders as men but are just getting away with it more often, but it does actually have, if not a grounding then at least an attempt to create a sociological/philosophical basis for the claim: a sociologist called Otto Pollak who in the 1950s proposed an explanation for why there are so few female offenders compared to male offenders.

His thesis was that female offending is just 'more hidden' because women, as a whole, are more secretive and deceptive than men as a whole. Why? Because women are used to lying about and hiding when they menstruate and because women can fake sexual arousal and orgasm and men cannot.

He argued on the basis of these observations that women's crimes are thereby more hidden.

There's no attempt at explaining where all the dead bodies of the two men a week* murdered by their female partners without anyone noticing are of course, nor why the police are still failing to find all these thousands of female offenders committing assaults, bank robberies and burglaries.

So that's where Jack is coming from. Whether he's conscious of that or not.

That's why there's no point in trying to reason with him. It's not a view based on logic, but on the age-old tradition of men hating and fearing women.

It's a small step from those claims about the "deceptive" nature of women to suspecting that their real fears of deception by women concern their children.

• (UK feminicide figures - 3 a day in the US)