Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.
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The question you seemed to be asking was :
You wonder what does transgender even mean in cases like this? If you
reject your birth gender, then why do you want to compete in that
category?So my interpretation was you were answering as to why they were competing in that category. If that's not what you were answering then my "rant" doesn't apply. (I couldn't care less why they identify as their chosen gender, FWIW).
Competing in the correct SEX (not gender) category in sports <should> have nothing to do with gender identity, or have any impact on what level of effort anyone chooses to live as trans. So again, nothing whatsoever to do with attention seeking. (I do hope you understand that the whole point that most posters on this thread are trying to make is exactly this : that someone's gender identity should be entirely irrelevant to which sex category in sports they are eligible to compete in)
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Is there a non binary category?
In most sports, including international athletics, there are sex categories, not gender categories. There is no such thing as non-binary sex, so there is no non-binary sex category. There are only 2 sexes, male and female. (There are of course many people who are inter-sex, but that does not negate the above facts).
Gender is different. There are multiple genders, most of which seem to fall into the non-binary grouping. But since this event had categories based on sex and not gender, that's irrelevant.
Overall there is a discussion to be had around trans athletes in sports
however it has certainly been made into a far bigger one than it
actually is.Do you have any understanding of sports at all? Do you realise the importance of fairplay to sports? How fundamental it is? You seem not to, if you don't understand why sports governing bodies would be endeavouring to ensure that their rules are fair to all competitors, irrespective of their gender identity. In sports this is a very big deal indeed.
It is by far not the biggest issue in women's sports and many people are
jumping on the bandwagon to be able to have a go at trans people instead
of any real interest in the issue itself.Can you tell me why you think that fairness in sports is not one of the biggest issues in sports (Male or Female)? Can you list off a 5 or 6 of the many issues you claim are more important that fiarplay when it comes to female sports please? Do you think that anyone who strives to ensure that rules ensure fairplay to all competitors is somehow automatically anti-trans as a result?
Overall sports seem to be veering towards scientifically backed
conclusions over time in spite of a lot of the vitriol and hatred this
has become a vehicle for. I don't think they will get itSo are you saying here that all these supposedly anti-trans people who are arguing for fairplay in sports on the basis of sports sceince are correct or wrong? You seem to be all over the place with this.
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someone's gender identity should be entirely irrelevant to which sex category in sports they are eligible to compete inCan you explain please, with some examples? Biological females in the female category, and biological males in the male ones? If so, that's exactly what so-called gender critical women are asking for: that trans women like Emily Bridges or Lia Williams should not race against women. But Bridges has refused to participate in the "open" category that was set up so that she could take part without having to register as male, still less continue to race against men.
Also, what then do you understand by "living as a woman" (or a man) then? Do you mean just dressing as the opposite sex? Are women who wear jeans probably trans men, or is there more to it than that? If so, what?
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I think I'm entirely aligned with your opinions on this, if I'm not mistaken.
Can you explain please, with some examples?
I'm not sure I can make it any clearer. Gender identity should have no bearing on which sex category a person is eligible to enter in sports. Example 1 : Anybody male sex should be eligible to enter the male sex category. Example 2: Anybody female sex should be eligible to enter the female sex category.
Biological females in the female category, and biological males in the male ones?
100%. And that's why I'm here wondering why people have some kind of issue with a bilogical female competing in the female category at the U.S. trials, and winning. I applaud their racing in the female sex category, irrespective of the fact that they happen to identify as a gender which is not female.
But Bridges has refused to participate in the "open" category that was
set up so that she could take part without having to register as male,
still less continue to race against men.Their choice, their loss.
Also, what then do you understand by "living as a woman" (or a man) then?
Why you are asking me? In the context of sports it's entirely irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. That's the point that I'm making. You'd probably be better off asking the person who I was replying to why they identified that as some kind of point of relevance.
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I think I'm entirely aligned with your opinions on this, if I'm not mistaken.I'm not sure I can make it any clearer. Gender identity should have no bearing on which sex category a person is eligible to enter in sports. Example 1 : Anybody male sex should be eligible to enter the male sex category. Example 2: Anybody female sex should be eligible to enter the female sex category.Right. I was puzzled because you seemed to be disagreeing with the other poster who, by my reading of their post, thinks exactly that.
100%. And that's why I'm here wondering why people have some kind of issue with a biological female competing in the female category at the U.S. trials, and winning. I applaud their racing in the female sex category, irrespective of the fact that they happen to identify as a gender which is not female.The problem is not that a biological female is competing in the female category (with the proviso that she is not doped up on testosterone treatments of course), but rather why nobody insisting that, say, Emily Bridges is "banned" from sport when in fact she is merely banned from the female category, on the grounds that "TWAW" ever seems to object to trans men continuing to participate in the female categopry after they have transitioned.
Surely it should be the same for both TM and TW? If "TWAW and must be allowed to take part as women", then "TMAM" and must move into the male category when they transition? Women told that they are "sexual racists" carrying out a form of segregation if they object to TW taking part in female sports, but there is no comparable obligation for TM to move into male sports.
Hence - I presume - @Gamergurll's scepticism as to there being ulterior motives involved. I wouldn't pronounce on that myself, but I can see that there is a massive inconsistency in the position of trans activists on that.
(I've tagged her so she can explain if I've misrepresented her position)
Also, what then do you understand by "living as a woman" (or a man) then?Why you are asking me? In the context of sports it's entirely irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
So in that case, my question then is in what domains you think gender identity should take priority over sex?
(I'm just trying to get a sense of your position here, not trying to catch you out in anything)
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The fact that we even have to discuss this is proof that the world has lost its mind. Biological males (regardless of how they want to identify themselves), should be laughed out of the room if they want to attempt to compete in female sports. It's that fuckin simple!
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It isn't a big issue because there are so few trans athletes. It is a tiny proportion of the population. Is it something that needs settling? Yes. Is it the biggest issue? No.
The non binary was in response to a specific post.
Drugs, funding, publicity, training facilities, issues with sports organisations are bigger issues. All bigger issues. You could probably stick in gender issues in various countries as well blocking athletes.
I am saying people don't care about issues in women's sports but are happy to have a go at trans people. Many don't care about fair play in women's sports. To steal a phrase from the right it is just virtue signalling. You think anyone giving out about Katie Ledecky being trans actually cares about what goes on in women's swimming if they can't recognise or even look up the biggest star in the sport without commenting?
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"It's that fuckin simple"
You'd think that, wouldn't you, but the fact we are here discussing it, it's evident it's not that simple for some.
I find it utterly remarkable that such a small cohort, along with their y'asslighting supporters, have gotten this far with everything. They have developed a culture of fear and shame, "cancelling" or attempting to cancel anyone that dared raise an eyebrow about it.
We should be thankful we have warriors like St JK, Riley Gaines and Sharon Davies taking on the weighty task of representing and protecting the overwhelming majority of women by making a stand against this total farce of a "movement".
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Right. I was puzzled because you seemed to be disagreeing with the other
poster who, by my reading of their post, thinks exactly that.The issue I have is with anyone questioning why a female sex athlete is competing successfully in the female sex category.
It appears that their decision to follow the rules correctly and compete in the category in which they are eligible to compete seems to be used by another poster to undermine the athlete's gender identity. If Gender Identity should have no bearing on which category an athlete should compete in (which we both agree should be the case) then it must surely follow that as a result, the sex category that an athlete competes in should not have any bearing whatsoever on the perceived "legitimacy" of their gender identity, whatever it is.
So trying to call the athlete out as being an attention seeker, or whatever, without anything to back that assertion up beyond the fact that they have competed in the female sex category actually undermines the clear separation of sex and gender that should apply to sports category eligibility.
The problem is not that a biological female is competing in the female
category (with the proviso that she is not doped up on testosterone
treatments of course), but rather why nobody insisting that, say, Emily
Bridges is "banned" from sport when in fact she is merely banned from
the female category, on the grounds that "TWAW" ever seems to object to
trans men continuing to participate in the female categopry after they
have transitioned.Well, I have no objection to female sex athletes competing in the female sex category, whatever their gender identity is. From a sporting POV I couldn't care less whether they have socially transitioned or not. (But if they are taking PEDs such as testosterone as part of a medical transition, then that's entirely different and appears not to be the case in this particular instance. Another point of agreement I think). If others have logically inconsistent views then they can wallow in them. As long as the rules are fair and all athletes can compete fairly under those rules then it really doesn't matter if a small minority can keep any logical consistency together.
So in that case, my question then is in what domains you think gender identity should take priority over sex?
(I'm just trying to get a sense of your position here, not trying to catch you out in anything)
I'm sticking to sports-related issues in this thread, but if you want to know my thoughts on any other subject feel free to PM me. I'll be happy to answer.
Post edited by Enduro on0 -
Yeah ok I see your point, and I wouldn't claim to have a better understanding of another poster's opinions than anyone else does, so I'm happy to leave it at that. If/when @Gamergurll comes back to this she can explain herself if she wishes to.
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It isn't a big issue because there are so few trans athletes. It is a
tiny proportion of the population. Is it something that needs settling?
Yes. Is it the biggest issue? No.You're showing a complete lack of understanding of sports, and how important fairness is in sports. EVERYONE should be entitled to fair competition under the rules without exceptions. Small numbers with an inherent unfair advantage would be a big problem.
There is only a tiny proportion of the population who have been caught using PEDs to cheat in sports. Does that mean it is not a big issue?!!!! (Hint: it absolutely is a huuuuuge issue, irrespective of the number being caught cheating. And exactly the same applies to athletes being allowed to compete in a category for which they should not be eligible under fairer rules).
You are failing to understand that one person competing unfairly impacts the results of everyone who finishes behind them in competition. Or sometimes it even deprives someone (or a long chain of people) from even having the opportunity to compete at all, due to the limited number of places that are available to compete in many events.
I have spoken with full-time professional sports administrators (with a huge love and understanding of sports) who regard this as one of the biggest and most important issues in sports.
The non binary was in response to a specific post.
You asked the question, I answered it for you. By definition, there can never be such a thing as a non-binary sex category. So the answer to your question replying to the specific post is no, there was no non-binary category because there never could be a non-binary category. It'd be worth more fully understanding the difference between sex and gender, and the terminology around them. It helps a lot when discussing these subjects.
Drugs, funding, publicity, training facilities, issues with sports
organisations are bigger issues. All bigger issues. You could probably
stick in gender issues in various countries as well blocking athletes.Drugs is about the same. Similar issues (unfair advantages), and seems to involve similar numbers of the population.
Funding is less so. That's a nice to have, not fundamental to the sport (like fairness in competition is). Any significant perception of unfairness in sports will usually have a big negative impact on that sport's funding. Funding is secondary.
I've no idea what you mean by "issues with sports organisations". That's too vague to mean anything.
"gender issues in various countries as well blocking athletes" is a local issue. Fairness in competition regarding category eligibility is a global issue fundamental to sports in which athletes compete in categorised competitions.
I am saying people don't care about issues in women's sports but are
happy to have a go at trans people. Many don't care about fair play in
women's sports. To steal a phrase from the right it is just virtue
signalling.Are you telling me that I don't care about issues in women's sports but because I want to see people compete in their correct sex category irrespective of their gender identity that I'm "happy to have a go at trans people"? That according to you I'm "just virtue signalling"?
Are you mansplaining to all the females posting on this thread that they don't care about issues in women's sports?
Tell me this… what do you care about " issues in women's sports"? Are you just here virtue signalling?
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It shouldn't be a big issue but has become one as so many argue against very solid and very basic science. There was quite a big deal made by not just people, interests groups, and people who really should know better when the IRFU made the changes to the eligibility of the women's category a couple of years back. So it's become more of an issue due to the difficulty women have in maintaining their boundaries for what is safe and fair for them.
There is a strong lobby group working against them here and they've successfully made this topic into a trans issue and not a woman's issue. It's not anti trans to say women should have safe and fair sport, it's very anti woman to say the opposite.
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You entirely missed the context of the non binary issue. Someone asked why a non binary person was competing in women's when they don't identify as a woman. I answered saying a non binary person would also not identify as a male and so would not be in a category they identify with no matter what.
There have been a large number of athletes caught with drugs. One of the biggest countries has had doping programs for generations. That is to say nothing of individual athletes and countries. Drugs has effected far more competitions than trans athletes and will continue to do so. Go round locker rooms for women's sports and ask them privately what their biggest issues in sports is. See how often you get trans athletes mentioned before funding.
Organisational issues is vague as it varies. The Irish soccer team have had a lot of issues for instance getting proper equipment and jerseys, wta has been heavily mismanaged etc. this is not unique to the women's games by any means but it is something is damaging sport a hell of a lot more than trans athletes. I can't speak for every organisation.
I have no idea, maybe you do care about women's sports. I wasn't even replying to you in my first post and now I was apparently accusing you? I am saying a large chunk of people commenting on this (in the internet in general) do not care about women's sports. I gave the example of the hate Ledecky got because her picture was next to this story. Or just the thread title.
There is a valid concern and a valid discussion to be had. I see the Olympics are banning anyone that been through male puberty at all from competing in women's categories which seems like a good step. It is hard to have the conversation when it is hard to tell who is interested in fairness and who just sees a way to scream about trans people which is why it gets more attention than bigger issues.
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No, and I am not against the conversation (and am even in favour of sports being sex based as opposed to gender).
You can see Ohio banned a trans athletes from competing against women in pro wrestling FFS (hint it is not an actual competition or a real sport). At one stage Texas forced a trans man to quit or compete in the women's category, he dominated. This is not everyone but shows that many are not in it to help women. I think this should be part of the conversation as well to ensure it doesn't extend into anti trans.
Sports won't get this exactly right to begin with but they are veering more towards more sensible conclusions as time goes on while largely ignoring the more hysteric sections online.
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You wonder what does transgender even mean in cases like this? If you reject your birth gender, then why do you want to compete in that category?
You only have to read the article you linked to, to understand what transgender means in their case. They’re pretty clear about it in another article they wrote themselves, linked from the article above:https://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/a36290808/nikki-hiltz-on-being-transgender-non-binary/
Could be any number of reasons they still compete in the women’s category, but I figure the simplest explanation is just because they want to.Attention seeking is definitely part of it alright, and they aren’t shy about the fact that they wish to bring attention to people like them (I’m reluctant to use terms like ‘community’, but y’know, whatever) - positive attention in the form of support, as opposed to negative attention in the form of criticism. I’m not sure what “living as trans” looks like to you, but I have a fair idea what you mean, I have no idea about their life outside the track (just funny I write that as I’m watching ‘Sprint’ on Netflix… it’s pretty much the manufactured drama I expected, but I’m not its target demographic I guess 😒).
The female athletes, whether nonbinary or trans, generally seem to choose to remain in their sex category. Which is sensible of them of course, and as long as their testosterone levels are normal for women, I have no problem with that.
Well to be fair, there aren’t that many of them to begin with (and we have no knowledge whatsoever of how many there actually are if they aren’t making any ostentatious claims which draw attention to themselves 🤔), but there are a handful, who we only know of because well, they’ve drawn attention to themselves:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/athletes-assigned-female-transitioned-mens-sports/
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You can see Ohio banned a trans athletes from competing against women in pro wrestling FFS (hint it is not an actual competition or a real sport). At one stage Texas forced a trans man to quit or compete in the women's category, he dominated.
Ohh it’s a bit more complicated than that. Ironically enough, the claims that professional wrestling is not an actual competition or a real sport, comes mainly from the sports promoters, in the hope of avoiding State licensing fees and regulation by bodies like the Oklahoma and New York State Athletic Commissions, where professional wrestling is legally regarded as a sport under State law:
https://www.them.us/story/trans-wrestler-nyla-rose-competed-against-cis-wrestler-oklahoma
Politicians in the various States are working just as hard to overturn the relevant pieces of legislation:
As for Mack Beggs, yep, they dominated alright, but they were also on hormone blockers at the same time, so there’s no way of determining the effects or influence of synthetic hormones specifically on their athletic ability, let alone their performance in competition, which relies on numerous factors as opposed to just one single factor alone:https://www.menshealth.com/trending-news/a33984383/mack-beggs-transgender-wrestler-interview/
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Something something kayfabe...
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Could be any number of reasons they still compete in the women’s category, but I figure the simplest explanation is just because they want to.
Why do they want to then? Maybe it's because they were 23 seconds slower than the third placed runner in the men's race and wouldn't have qualified for the Olympics.
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TBF, when the current definition of "man" or "woman" is as complicated and context-specific as the bandwagon-jumpers would have us believe, that probably does make it harder to notice that the "wanting to" generally follows a pattern.
And of course, if transitioners get to choose which category they want to participate in, why doesn't everybody else? I remember Oscar Pistorius having to fight to be allowed to participate against non-disabled athletes. The athlete doesn't get to choose to switch between categories at will.
The female athletes, whether nonbinary or trans, generally seem to choose to remain in their sex category. Which is sensible of them of course, and as long as their testosterone levels are normal for women, I have no problem with that.Well to be fair, there aren’t that many of them to begin with (and we have no knowledge whatsoever of how many there actually are if they aren’t making any ostentatious claims which draw attention to themselves 🤔), but there are a handful, who we only know of because well, they’ve drawn attention to themselves
There "aren't many of them" isn't an argument when every biological man taking up a spot in a female category has pushed down ALL the women beneath him. The knock-on effect is massive.
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Nikki Hiltz, good female1500 Mtr runner representing the USA, and also representing the LGBTQ+ community or so she says, I think the L is mostly her thing …
And that's great because she's a woman who likes to express her feelings in terms of sexuality.
Thanks to Sharon Davis, Mara Yamauchi and many others, there will be no men in women's swimming/track & field or cycling events this years Olympics 👏
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plodder I think you’ve uncovered the gay vagenda! 🤔
I cannot take credit for the term ‘vagenda’:
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There "aren't many of them" isn't an argument when every biological man taking up a spot in a female category has pushed down ALL the women beneath him. The knock-on effect is massive.
The reference to ‘them’ in that context was in relation to the number of athletes that we know of, of the female sex, who have competed in the men’s events after they announced that they are transgender. The argument that there aren’t many of them to begin with has nothing whatsoever to do with any number of biological men, but rather the number of athletes who previously competed in women’s events, and now compete in the men’s. I think in that context it’s fair to say that there aren’t many of them in the first place, which may explain the lack of representation among the men’s events. It’s equally plausible of course as you allude to, that they would see continuing to compete in the women’s events as the more sensible course of action, and remain silent about that aspect of themselves lest they invite unwelcome attention from people who wish to speculate as to their motives for not remaining silent.0 -
TBF, when the current definition of "man" or "woman" is as complicated and context-specific as the bandwagon-jumpers would have us believe, that probably does make it harder to notice that the "wanting to" generally follows a pattern.
When you consider the amount of blood, sweat and tears runners invest to get to that level[*], and to put it less crudely than in my other post, maybe Hiltz's identity as a champion athlete is simply more important than their gender identity at this point in time. In the link that OEJ provided the other day, Hiltz reveals they wanted to be a boy since age 6 and "currently" identifies as non-binary. Who knows? Maybe in years to come when their running career is over, that might change.
[*] I'm reading Lauren Fleshman's book "Good for a Girl: My life Running in a Man's World" at the moment. It's an incredible read which chronicles her own experience and the struggles and obstacles top women face in athletics in America. Many of the obstacles come down simply to the biological differences between men and women and that the system is setup up to suit male biology.
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Maybe in years to come when their running career is over, that might change.
They don’t appear to be inclined to wait until their career is over before they identify themselves as non-binary though, an identity which in no way whatsoever indicates that they feel compelled to compete with men. As far as they’re concerned, their advocacy is as important to them as their career in athletics:“I'm excited to be with a brand where our values align and they see me for more than just a runner,” Hiltz, who goes by they/them pronouns, told Runner’s World. “They see what I’m doing off the track as well and they value that just as much.”
https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a40380934/nikki-hiltz-officially-signs-on-with-lululemon/
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I don't know what your point is then: are you saying there are far fewer FtM transitioners than MtF? Do you have data for that?
Because if someone's "gender identity" is inherent rather than being based on a social construct, that should not be the case: the proportions in both sexes should be of comparable size, if not actually close to half and half. Like hair colour.
And even then, so what? If biological women like Patricio Manuel choose to compete in a category where they get knocked out in 21 seconds as soon as they're up against a boxer who actually wins the odd fight, rather than permanent losers, well I think it's unwise for Manuel but they're only harming themselves, so, you know.
No wonder there are so few of them though.
That's why the real question is not where trans men should compete, but why biological women are being allowed to be pushed out by males in female categories. The other way around, whatever the number, is a personal question: the TM's mental health might well be a factor, but I don't think that should be a general presumption.
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I don't know what your point is then: are you saying there are far fewer FtM transitioners than MtF? Do you have data for that?
Your point was that there doesn’t appear to be many FtM athletes competing in men’s events, and my point was that it’s because there are so few of them competing in women’s events in the first place, that there could only be a handful visible in the men’s events. You didn’t say anything about MtF, so I didn’t either. Even in the snopes article I did provide, they started off mentioning FtM athletes competing in men’s events, and still managed to switch the focus of the article to MtF athletes, which had nothing to do with your point about the lack of visibility of FtM athletes competing in men’s events.That’s why I suggested there are only a handful that we know of in the women’s events in the first place, and an even smaller handful who decide to compete in the men’s events. There is no stipulation in the rules that I’m aware of at least which compels them to switch to the men’s events; there are stipulations however that preclude them from competing in the women’s events, such as should they choose to undergo medical treatment which involves the use of substances on the list of prohibited substances. That’s why TUEs exist, though they are not an automatic exemption from the rules:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/10/06/trans-nonbinary-runner-testosterone-exemption/
I take your point that it’s reasonable to assume equal numbers of people who are transgender exist among both sexes, but the reason they are not equally visible in society, let alone athletics, has little to do with biology, and everything to do with social expectations and everyone’s capacity to conform to those social expectations. For example I’m sure you’ve heard plenty in the media about how the law which prohibited homosexuality impacted upon men, but there is little in the media about how the law also impacted women. Kelly Holmes is but one example, albeit the most high profile example I can think of off the top of my head right now, because of her experiences having to hide that aspect of herself for fear of the repercussions:https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-67441439.amp
That's why the real question is not where trans men should compete, but why biological women are being allowed to be pushed out by males in female categories. The other way around, whatever the number, is a personal question: the TM's mental health might well be a factor, but I don't think that should be a general presumption.I don’t think it should be a general presumption that biological women are being allowed to be pushed out by males in female categories, as that overlooks a number of factors which determine eligibility and qualification for any events in the first place, let alone the fact that it still comes down to selecting from the pool of qualified participants as to whether or not they progress in competition. I get that it’s, y’know, obviously a real question as far as you’re concerned, but it isn’t one worth entertaining as far as I’m concerned. It’s also not one worth entertaining as far as Nikki Hiltz is concerned:
For Hiltz, the point always boils down to this — inclusivity.
“As someone who’s competed in women’s sports my whole life, I think we do need protecting, but I don’t think it’s from trans women,” Hiltz said last summer. “I think it’s from abusive coaches. Or there are so many more issues, like equal representation, equal pay.
“Those are the issues I would love to address instead of trans women, because that’s not something we’ve ever had to have protecting from.”
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So to be clear, are you really quoting Hiltz, who considers themselves NOT to be a woman, and who by your own admission is part of a tiny minority of non women in female sports, as an appropriate arbiter of which women’s issues are genuine and which are not worth bothering about??
I think that says all we need to know about your attitude to women.
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I didn’t quote Hiltz for the purposes of being the arbiter of anything. I quoted them by way of making the point that what is a real question as far as you’re concerned, is a personal question, as opposed to the idea that I should assume other women share your concerns, when in reality I know they just don’t.
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…. But of course Hiltz is a woman, and as such she will compete freely, openly & without controversy in the women's category at the 2024 summer Olympics.
Yes she may desire to have a "gender identity" attached to herself, but that is immaterial in the grand scheme of things as she is a female competing against other females/women athletes on the track. Period.
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But Hiltz is not “other women”. Unless you’re not above a spot of misgendering whenever it suits you.
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