Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122457894#Comment_122457894

…is not Algeria

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458931#Comment_122458931

xxy’s? xx males? I the cases of xx males the only difference with xy males is they tend to be a little shorter and infertile. Other than that they experience makes puberty and appear masculine and have fully functioning male reproductive organs. This thread will see them competing with women?

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122457646#Comment_122457646

As previous mentioned, Iran are the outlier. It is illegal in all other Muslim countries.
Nobody referenced Iran. Not why you think that's relevant in this case.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458092#Comment_122458092

Your reading comprehension needs work. There is nothing wrong that sentence, it's stating a negative.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458630#Comment_122458630

Calling her a she based on being raised a women is a lot better than calling her a he based on nothing.

Seems strange that the IBA are happy to come out and state someone failed an gender eligibility test but refuse to give any information about how the process is carried out.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458966#Comment_122458966

The very first sentence of the OP mentions "allowing transgender women to enter women's competitions". That raises the question of eligibility, which is a sporting rules issue. I think it took about 10 posts before average runner pointed out the advantages men have over women. The OP managed to find one example of a biological female beating a biological male and did some impressive extrapolation, and while not mentioning rules specifically, heavily implied the question of eligibility.

Just because a thread has "transgender" in the title doesn't mean only strictly transgender issues must be discussed in it. The OP also discusses a swimming race, which is sport. Were we supposed to ignore that bit? 226 pages in and not a prompt from the mods (or anyone else) about staying on topic, until you arrived.

You could always start another thread if you don't like how this one is panning out.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459037#Comment_122459037

these aren’t transgender

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459063#Comment_122459063

Even if you had bothered with punctuation, your statement would be ambiguous. In fact I'm really having difficulty understanding the point of your posts in general. Assuming you are referring to the two boxers, I don't think anyone has said they are transgender, and even if they were it would still be a question of sporting rules, which you don't seem to like. Regarding the rules the IOC have made in this area, I don't like them much either.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459037#Comment_122459037

Yes, the whole point is that males shouldn't be competing against females, whatever variety of male they might be. Looking at my history, I started a thread way back in 2018 called "biological males in women's sports". The problem is only becoming more prominent now

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459120#Comment_122459120

Why is it a problem when Trans females are just as weak or weaker that Cis Females? As noted above.

Hamsterchops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458630#Comment_122458630

Yes I agree, but after tens of thousands of years of human evolution men are still men & women are still women. Boys grow up to become men & girls grow up to become women, most are hetro - many are gay & lesbian, some are born with DSDs and for 90%+ of humans this is the norm, same as its always been since the dawn of time, so business as usual …

*Trans is another thing altogether, based on feelings and a belief system that you are what you believe you are, what sex/gender say you are, or what you want to identify as, and what "gender" you want to outwardly portray or display. This way a man can turn into a woman, and he will now be a she/her (and demand to be accepted as such). Those who don't comply sre deemed to be transphobes or terfs. Buzzwords include pronouns, cis, assigned at birth, misgendering & deadnaming.

>That's my take on it all anyway.

PS: The two boxers are not trans.

normanoffside

Interesting tweet just now by the IOC, basically saying that we are indeed looking at a case DSD athletes.

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459205#Comment_122459205

That's one person who says they are weaker than the oldest lady in the yoga class on social media.

It's as far from a scientific study as you can get.

If someone posted something on social media saying they were a transwoman and had twice the strength of the cis women would you say they should be banned.

Anyone can post anything on social media. That post may not even be true about the testosterone of a 6 year old girl and the yoga class and if it is that person has health problems if their testosterone is so low.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458573#Comment_122458573

Well, both the IBA and the IOC have a long history of corruption so you can't really query the IBA's results while relying on the IOC's simple passport and document checking. Would the IOC accept a national team providing equivalent documentation to prove that an athlete was drug-free or do they insist on their own drug-testing regimen? We all know the answer to that.

It's also a false problem for a more practical reason: it's perfectly normal when you have two incompatible test results, both potentially problematic for various reasons, to just do another test somewhere else. That's also the basis of the existing appeals process.

Because both boxers had the opportunity at the time to appeal to an independent court of arbitration which would have done new tests and issued a final decision. They both failed to do so (one of them did actually begin the process but then withdrew it early on in the proceedings). That is what gives the IBA results their legal value - the absence of an appeal against them within the allotted time. That's a choice both athletes and their teams made.

But more than that: they could do a new test now, at an independent laboratory of their choice. It's a 5-second cheek swab, not a strip search of internal cavities. 82% of the female athletes asked about whether or not to maintain the cheek swab sex test back when it was still the norm voted to keep it. (It was dropped anyway). If these two athletes are women, it's odd that even after all the controversy over their sex, they're so strongly against sex testing that they won't hear of it. Even though it would solve their public image problems immediately?

Of course there's a very obvious reason why they might not want to do that. I'm not assuming that's the only possible reason, but I haven't seen any credible alternatives suggested, so I'm going with it being the likeliest for now.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458966#Comment_122458966

It was being discussed in the Olympics thread but the posts were removed and we were told to discuss it here. But thanks for the backseat modding all the same.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459063#Comment_122459063

Indeed, but tell that to the BBC who put up TWO trans women to discuss the Khelif/Carini fight on Thursday's "The World Tonight" - not a single woman was consulted. (The "balance" provided being that one of them, an ex boxer, said women should absolutely not have to fight men, while the other, a so-called researcher who published a well-dodgy study some years back set up to prove that TW "lose" their male advantage due to hormone treatment) said it's all very complicated and we can't possibly tell.)

AFAICS the trans aspect is being wedged into this by trans activists and "allies". Joanne Rowling for instance said right at the start that this has nothing to do with trans people and that the problem is that what we saw in that fight was a man beating a woman. Not that the BBC asked her or any other woman of course, not even a female boxer.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459205#Comment_122459205

That isn't true though, and a massive screengrab from an anonymous source doesn't make it so.😁

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459548#Comment_122459548

Indeed, at least the OP referenced a real case of a woman beating a man, that screengrab was just someone claiming to be weaker. Of course, if the poster in question had read the whole thread, they'd have seen all the evidence for the advantages that undergoing male puberty gives.

Mr Bumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459506#Comment_122459506

The IBA is controlled from Moscow by a Russian gangster and is not recognised by the IOC as the controlling body for boxing.

Their "test" has no standing. They refused to provide any information of the nature of the test or the criteria.

The tests were announced shortly after the Algerian beat a Russian.

The entire story is about Russian disinformation and corruption.

normanoffside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459637#Comment_122459637

The Algerian wasn't disqualified after beating a Russian though, was disqualified after beating a Thai.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459637#Comment_122459637

The tests were announced shortly after the Algerian beat a Russian.

Again, not true. There was no fight against a Russian, that appears to be deliberate misinformation. Where are you getting your information from?

Khelif beat Thailand's Janjaem Suwannapheng and was set to compete against China's Yang Liu for gold in the Welterweight category.

Lin beat Bulgaria's Svetlana Kamenova Staneva for bronze in the Featherweight category.

They were scheduled to fight no Russian boxers in either one of their categories, and only one Russian boxer won a gold medal in the entire championship (Anastasiia Demurchian, Light Middleweight).

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cye0ex43k63o

When your own information is so blatantly inaccurate, I don't think "But, but the IBA" carries much weight.

Neither the IBA nor the IOC are free of corruption (the IOC offices were searched by the French police before the Games, over corruption allegations.)

So the only sensible thing to do is for the athletes concerned to either appeal their results (which they chose not to do) and/or do new tests now at an independent laboratory (which they appear loathe to do.).

In the absence of alternative tests which only they can provide, the legally valid test results are the ones the IBA carried out and which the athletes concerned chose not to contest. The IOC merely examined the documentation provided by the national bodies. Which would not suffice for a suspicion of doping.

erlichbachman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459637#Comment_122459637

Thankfully we have such high profile names as Elon musk and JK speaking out here, otherwise the conspiracy theory that this is all a Russian plot would gather traction.

Birneybau

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459205#Comment_122459205

Do you truly TRULY believe someone got their testosterone levels below that of a six year old girl?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122460035#Comment_122460035

And why SIX and not 5 or 10? I wonder what the data points are for such a comparison: how many healthy 6 year old girls even get their testosterone levels checked anyway?

Even for boys, levels before age 7 don't seem to be of much diagnostic use going by this table. I suppose age 6 or 7 will be the same, IOW past babyhood and pre puberty, rates will not be age-dependent so he's just picked the youngest possible age for which he's found data, when in fact at, say, age 10 it would have been exactly the same, but wouldn't have sounded quite so cute and disarming.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323085#low-levels

More pertinently though, I'm sure you're correct that the idea that a TW would be encouraged to have levels BELOW that of a pre-pubertal female is nonsense: I think almost anyone with thyoid insufficiency will tell you that doctors constantly "sub" supplement them in terms of comfort, IOW the person feels much better at a higher level of supplementation than the doctor is willing to allow them.

This is for safety reasons: the doctor wants them to be on the absolute minimum supplementation possible for their own best interests, even if that means a significant loss of comfort in terms of symptoms.

I can't imagine that HRT with the "wrong" hormone for someone's physiological processes can be any different: it would be madness to have someone aiming for levels way below those of a female adult of the same age. That's why I'm calling BS on that claim too. It's a complete fantasy.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122459935#Comment_122459935

I was listening to Des Cahill on RTE Radio there. He says the British boxing team believe four out of their five defeats were called wrongly, and apparently two of the judges that voted against Daina Moorehouse were flagged as "susceptible to corruption" by the IBA. He was blaming the IBA for not telling the IOC, but I thought that was naive. Why would the IBA do anything to make the IOC look competent at running a boxing tournament?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122460181#Comment_122460181

So, judges that the IBA had flagged as potentially corrupt and who would not have been judging had the IBA been in charge, have been used by the IOC, and multiple countries feel that wrong decisions are being made?

And the IOC of course have themselves been under investigation for possible corruption in the run-up to the Games.

Hmm. I wonder why anyone thinks this is just a question of IBA corruption??

(Do you know how/when it came out that certain judges had previously been flagged by the IBA?)

JP Liz V1

Hungarian Boxing Association calls on the IOC to reconsider allowing biologically male Algerian boxer Imane Khelif, to compete against female Hungarian boxer Anna Luca Hamori on Saturday at the Paris Olympics. The association is exploring the possibility of legally challenging Khelif’s prescence in the women’s boxing at the Olympics. Additionally The Hungarian Olympic Committee has been in talks with the IOC to protect “the right of female competitors to equal opportunities and fair competition”.

Source: Guardian

BlitzKrieg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458621#Comment_122458621

Most chromosome tests take roughly a week, her taking the test does nothing for her now. You can argue why she didnt take the test before hand but she's has an up to date approved record book like all boxers that she has used for multiple boxing events in 2023/2024 (Eindhavon Cup) and for entering the Olympics. To actually force an athlete to take a test and not accept their record book a body would actually need something to justify it.

Just to confirm this, here is a link to the Eindhoven Box Cup invitation that she fought in and you can see on page 3 that it requires up to date record books with yearly medical exams for all entries

https://eindhovenboxcup.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Invitation-for-the-Eindhoven-Box-Cup-2024.pdf

This is why the IOC calls the IBA decision 'arbitrary' because they claim they had grounds to believe the record book was incorrect based on a 2022 test but still accepted her record book at the start of the event and then backtracked during the event.

And because the IBA was removed from the Olympics formally in 2023 their results are not grounds for justifying challenging her records book.

I need to stress this there is a big fight going down between the IBA and new boxing federation World Boxing that is the big drama behind all this. The 2023 event was boycotted by multiple countries over actions the IBA had taken (attempts to ban the Ukrainian team and allowing Russian Boxers to take part) thats why the last time an irish/british boxer fought Imran was in 2022 and not 2023 because they all boycotted the 2023 event.

The reason why Imran withdrew her challenge of the disqualification because World Boxing started running events in 2023 and is being openly touted to replace the IBA in the Olympics and when the Olympics officially kicked the IBA to the curb in 2023 it was made clear that IBA events were no longer relevant to seeding for the Olympics or arguably the future of the sport in general.

And this is what needs to be stressed, the IBA has been using this pr nightmare to attack World Boxing, to push down their new rivals and force Olympics back to the discussion table with them if they want to keep Boxing an Olympic sport.

This is a fight between big boxing federations about essentially the monopoly of Olympic Boxing,

its all over money again

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122460251#Comment_122460251

I don't know when this was flagged. I was just repeating what he said. By the way, Khelif is up in the next few minutes in her fight with Luca Hamori, who beat Ireland's Grainne Walsh in the first round.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122460368#Comment_122460368

Yeah I've been searching for it, but can't find it live among all the damn stations covering all sorts of games!

But I have found this on the net:

https://olympics.com/en/paris-2024/results/boxing/women-s-66kg/qfnl000200--

I can't see the match but they're giving the scoring.