Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122464763#Comment_122464763

Well here is an extremely male presenting Semenya describing growing up with boys, playing all kids of sports with them and not with girls who are "soft". Notice how they aren't described as "the other girls" or similar.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvg50P4FwTk

The thing about using a boys name is in her autobiography and referenced in numerous articles. Also here is a photo of Caster wearing a boys uniform at school. It seems that Caster was accepted and viewed as a boy at least once puberty kicked in and it became apparent what the situation was.

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122465065#Comment_122465065

The only conclusion I can draw from that is that you have an issue with girls wearing trousers.

Loafing Oaf

Both Khalief and Lin Yu-Ting very short odds on for gold, so I guess this story is set to overshadow the whole Olympics…

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122465124#Comment_122465124

Sure I'm a woman wearing trousers today myself. No issue there. My issue is more that Semenya is a male person, fully aware for years that they are a male person and who doesnt seem to ever have thought they were actually a girl, except to compete against them

Strazdas

Not much evidence these supposed biological males have a huge advantage over 'regular' females. Khelif has lost nine times to female opponents - that's a lot of defeats for an Olympic boxer (Kellie Harrington has scarcely lost a single fight in the last five or six years).

Hamsterchops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122465309#Comment_122465309

The point is that men should NOT be participating in women's sports, specially when it comes to competitions and winning medals. Currently we don't know for sure what the biological status is for the two boxers, but surely if there's any doubt about their biological makeup, then the IOC should err on the side of caution rather than fastrack them through the rounds and up to the top of the medal table 🏅

I blame Mark Adams & the IOC.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122465148#Comment_122465148

They both would have medalled at the World Championships in 2023 if they hadn't been disqualified. Yo Ting would have won a bronze medal and Khelif was in the final when she was pulled. She beat Suwannapheng 5-0 in the SF in that comp and that's who she's fighting in the SF of the Olympics this time out.

They both medalled at the previous World Championship too so they are hot prospects.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122464811#Comment_122464811

Sorry I got confused, I thought you were asking about Imane Khelif. For Caster Semenya it's even simpler: when he appealed a ban after failing a sex test, that led to a judgment on his case which was (had to be) made public, and that made it clear that Semenya had XY chromosomes and a male-specific DSD known as 5-ARD which led him to have ambiguous genitalia at birth, but such children experience the normal surge of testosterone that male children have during puberty because their testicles, despite being undescended, are functional.

The reference to the CAS ruling is mentioned here (Sean Ingle is chief sports reporter for the Guardian, hardly a TERF bastion):

https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1460727237896978438

Here's a bit more detail, especially if you don't like twitter even from actual experts in the field!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122465353#Comment_122465353

I think the discussion is much more of a moral or ethical one rather than anything to do with these athletes supposedly having an advantage. It is noticeable that amateur female boxers never fail drugs tests for taking testosterone or other PEDs. An amateur female would receive very little advantage from taking testosterone or bulking up - it's all about skill with the hands, speed and being good on your feet in amateur boxing with only 3 x 3 minute rounds.

By all means ban 'biological males' from boxing, but it's certainly not because they have an advantage in the ring.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122465309#Comment_122465309

That Khelif has been beaten by a number of elite female boxers is probably the second-worst argument in favour of him being female (the worst being the one that goes if anyone voices suspicions about Khelif, they must necessarily think that Simone Biles or Serena Williams or some other black female athlete is also male. That's even worse because it's frankly racist as well as illogical).

Khelif is a good but not a great boxer and is capapble of being beaten by a certain number of great female boxers despite the unfair advantages conferred by his male body.

That's all that Khelif's previous defeats signify.

Here's Serena Williams talking about the differences between men's and women's tennis (where nobody gets punched in the head):

https://twitter.com/yaf/status/1644112883142340610

Could Serena Williams beat the average or even a good male tennis player? No doubt she could. But there is still an unfair advantage held by men which is independent of skill. And in combat sports, that is dangerous and any possible doubt cannot be ignored. A sex test is a simple matter. Women athletes wanted the sex test kept. Why was it thrown out by the IOC?

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466093#Comment_122466093

Yes but they weren't blowing the rest of their fieklds away, as the bookies seem to anticipate them doing in Paris, and if both of them do that it'll surely heighten the cacophony around this story…

CatFromHue

Having a height and reach advantage in boxing is an advantage and males are typical taller and have longer arms than females.

Having a smaller Q Angle, the angle of the femur, is more beneficial to athletic movement and males have smaller Q Angles than females.

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466225#Comment_122466225

It would help if you read posts before jumping in.

I'm fully aware of the Semenya situation. I have coached athletes to international level. What is your background in the sport?

I was responding to a post that was full of misinformation about Semenya's background.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466276#Comment_122466276

But sheer physical strength does not give you a huge advantage in women's amateur boxing - this is not professional boxing where you have 12 rounds and one of the main aims is to try and knock out your opponent, knock them down several times or have the fight stopped.

It's obvious from much of the profoundly ignorant commentary on social media that the majority of people commenting there have never watched a women's amateur boxing bout in their lives. Amateur boxing is primarily about skills, ring craft, good footwork, clever defence, speed of thought and reaction etc….bulking up with testosterone would hardly improve a female amateur boxer to any degree (which is why we never hear of failed drugs tests with female amateurs).

Hamsterchops

BOXING ROW @ THE PARIS OLYMPICS

https://youtu.be/h5344wVIN20?si=4sSv8pTN1-Yx1IcS

The thoughts of Mara Yamauchi

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466299#Comment_122466299

I've played sport all my life, though never at elite level, and I'm a woman. I'm a scientist rather than a sportswoman though. What's your point?

Do you agree that someone with 46XY 5-ARD is male?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466278#Comment_122466278

I'm pretty certain they'll start pulling their punches a bit, if they've haven't already been doing so.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466350#Comment_122466350

So why bother with male and female categories at all then? By that logic, shouldn't we just get rid of them and just use weight categories?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466430#Comment_122466430

I would have no issue at all if such athletes get excluded from the next Olympics (and world championships, European championships etc).

But the massive pile on against the two boxers from numerous bad actors on social media has been very unedifying to watch. The athletes haven't done anything wrong, such as cheating or taking drugs. They are not responsible for how the IOC governs its own competitions.

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466415#Comment_122466415

My point was pointing out the misinformation that was posted about a fellow human being.

downthemiddle

When two DSD athletes played against Ireland in the Woman's World Cup where was this level of outrage?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466475#Comment_122466475

Right, I agree entirely.

The cause of this "pile-on" has been the refusal of the IOC to deal with the problem upstream, before the Games started.

The IOC first chose to remove sex testing, despite the fact that this was not what female athletes wanted, and to replace it by a mere document check. This would not be accepted to prove an absence of artificial testosterone, so why would it be enough to prove sex, when a simple test is available? Athletes are regularly expected to submit to far more intrusive testing for drugs and nobody complains about that.

Then, they refused to respond to concerns raised about these particular athletes, choosing to hide behind a claim that "our procedures have been followed". But their procedures are insufficient, and, given that it's a combat sport, such a dismissive attitude cannot be justified. There is a genuine doubt, which can be cleared up very quickly - that has to be done.

Anyone who defends maintaining the present situation of needless uncertainty risks making themselves complicit with male violence against women.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466524#Comment_122466524

And now you've made that clear, do you have an opinion on whether there's a problem with a male fighting a female who has not consented to doing so?

Do you agree that it is essential to ensure that this does not happen - and that this must take precedence over any questions of the feelings of the fighter concerned?

The whole mess may not be Khelif's fault in any way at all, but that is neither here nor there.

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466762#Comment_122466762

I have not made any post about Khelif.

Yet again you are failing to read posts. You cannot expect to be taken seriously when you are only interested in putting your words in other people's mouths.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466778#Comment_122466778

I didn't say you did. I'm asking you, since Khelif (and Lin) is the current subject of discussion here, not Semenya who is retired.

If you don't have an opinion on male boxers potentially fighting women, you're free to say so. Nobody is putting words in your mouth.

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466785#Comment_122466785

I responded to a post about Caster Semenya. Rather than reading that post you jumped in making assumptions. You have continued to do so. This is not a thread that is specific to Khelif and Lin. Attempting to impose your viewpoint on others does not reflect well on you.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466811#Comment_122466811

LOL, what "viewpoint" am I putting into your mouth? On the contrary, I'm asking you what your opinion is.

But you seem determined to dance around to avoid expressing an opinion on what is, after all, a far more topical issue than Caster Semenya. You've explained your point about Semenya and that's fine. Do you have an opinion about Khelif and Lin and why they would be happy to make their "passport sex" publicly known, but have sent out legal notices preventing anyone from publishing their actual test results?

I mean, why, other than that this can only mean that the two results differ? Or do you have another suggestion?

AllForIt

I don't understand how the trans rights activists can say that this Khelif DSD controversy has nothing to do with the trans issue, you know because Khelif isn't trans.

In general if you are going to permit transwomen with XY chromosomes compete in women's sport then that policy would have to apply to everyone, i.e. including those with DSD's. If chromosomes don't matter for transwomen they why would they matter for those with DSD's. How could you have a policy where transwomen can compete with XY but those with XY DSD's can't.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466716#Comment_122466716

Was that information made public at that time?

If not, how do you expect people to know about it?

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122460065#Comment_122460065

Whether it's 5 or 5 or 9 year old is irrelevant. The claim was pre-pubertal children. 6 is simply mid range value.

You can't conflate HRT or other hormone supplementation with the above. People on HRT/TRT are directly taking the target hormone, it's pretty easy to target a physiological level.

it would be madness to have someone aiming for levels way below those of a female adult of the same age. 

How exactly do you think that aim for any level? Not sure if you misread the post, or just
I highly doubt the claim is bullshit. It's not something I've looked into. But I imagine it's common knowledge medically.

But the argument is a false equivalence. They are trying to generalise all trans-athletes, into that group. which is dishonest at best.