Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345849#Comment_119345849

I asked already but if changing the testosterone level is actually an equaliser where are the transmen competing at the highest levels of their sports?

plodder

Men and women are different. The idea that sex isn't binary (female and male) because there is a small number of people who are exceptions to that rule, is like saying humans aren't bipedal (don't have two legs), because some humans have a leg amputated, or they were born without a leg. They are exceptions to the rule, but they don't change the rule.

Transgender people aren't exceptions to the sex rule. Some people with DSDs might be, but transgender people generally aren't. Sex is different from gender. Why is this controversial? Sex matters for top level sport, but gender is what matters for every day life. They need to be treated differently in some situations but not all.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119347308#Comment_119347308

When they succeeded in convincing the IOC to change the guidelines so transgender athletes could compete at the Olympics without undergoing surgery -

https://www.thecut.com/2016/01/chris-mosier-transgender-athletes-olympics.html

They’re making sponsorship and advertising deals with Nike -

https://www.esquire.com/style/mens-fashion/news/a47461/nike-transgender-athlete-ad/

And more recently, they’re writing articles for the Guardian newspaper about transgender athletes participation in sports, their only demand being fairness -

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/29/sports-trans-participation-transgender-women-swimming

As well as running an organisation dedicated to transgender athletes participation in sports -

https://www.transathlete.com/

No wonder you never hear from them - too busy 😂

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345849#Comment_119345849

It's well accepted that testosterone levels are only one of the reasons that's men typically outperform women in sports.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119347492#Comment_119347492

😂 Indeed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119347514#Comment_119347514

It doesn't matter what testosterone level anyone has.

Biological men don't belong in a biological women's competition, full stop. End of story. Period.

As long as it's called a women's competition, no biological male should compete.

And to reduce women to testosterone percentages and data is quite frankly insulting to women.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119347308#Comment_119347308

No need to ask here as google is your friend.

Unless you are asking here as you assume that no trans man has ever been selected to compete against biological men at elite level. Isn't there a saying about assuming making an ass ...?

We could ask Chris Mosier.

https://www.thechrismosier.com/about-1

Or since Lia Thomas kicked off this who thing how about Schuyler Miwon Hong Bailar, who "took a man's spot" on the Harvard swim team competing at the NCAA?

Granted there aren't many elite trans men athletes - or trans women for that matter.

But then there aren't (despite the hysteria) that many trans gender people (studies put it as between 0.05 - 0.07% of the population) - of that group how many have the capability to be an elite athlete?

Less than 1% of the overall population play sports professionally, the figure for those who have the capabilities to be considered 'elite' is hard to pin down but research into US college athletes indicates it's 0.4%

So - 0.4% of 1% of the general population have what it takes to become an elite athlete (doesn't mean they will, there are other factors).

Trans gender people account for 0.05 to 0.07% of the over all population - meaning 0.4% of 0.05-0.07% of the 1 % of the population who are professional sports people could potentially be considered potentially elite.

78m is 1% of Global population (incl babies, children, elderly). 0.07% of that is 54600. 0.4% of that is 208.

Seems to me it's amazing there any trans athlete given those figures.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348360#Comment_119348360

the figure for those who have the capabilities to be considered 'elite' is hard to pin down but research into US college athletes indicates it's 0.4%

You're making the assumption that this should hold for trans women competing against biological women as well. That's a big assumption

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348360#Comment_119348360

There are very few Trans athletes in a very small pool of athletes.

It's becoming a story because the disparity between male and female athletes in power and speed events is so stark.

So a boy who was never a contender against other 16 or 17 year old boys is barnstorming it against women. A school boy sprinter can be an Olympic record holder as a female.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119225550#Comment_119225550

Rubbish.

What advanyage does a Trans Woman have over a Woman. She had testosterone in her you say. Ever think that maybe she we did not want that.

Also as we take oestrogen we lose muscle mass and gain fat as well as still having to carry around a skeleton formed from testosterone unless we has started transition in the early 10s or younger before testosterone had any major effects.

So a Trans woman competing in any female sport is at a major disadvantage straight away as they have heavier bones to carry around and less muscles than they had to do it.

So yes they should be aloud compete in Wonans sports and no there is no need for a third category. That is just discrimination and stupid too.

If the trans women was never really a man in otherwords started to transition at 13 or 15 then they never experienced the effects of testosterone and are the lucky ones and should be able to compete in female sports too as they are females be it as girls or as Women of they are over 18 when they are competing.

Danzy

Both sides of the argument will thank this post. (Akmc one above.)

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348425#Comment_119348425

Seems some people still don't accept that hormones affect performance... or chose to ignore it in order to make an irrelevant point about biological males competing against biological females with nary a trans person in sight.

Maybe start a thread on that eh?

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348398#Comment_119348398

Show me how a tiny percentage of the population who could potentially be a trans woman athlete are a threat to women's sports.

Or are you simply assuming with zero evidence?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348496#Comment_119348496

There are a whole sweet of factors affecting performance, hormones just being one.

The difference in fast twitch fibres, endocrine system, cardiovascular etc

What your hormone levels are at when you are competing or training is only a part of it.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348360#Comment_119348360

No there are but not as many and not at the highest level either.

There's also a pattern for the transwomen in that when they were men they ok but when they transitioned became very good. This is because of the male advantage that the transition process doesn't fully remove. For Mosier he didn't get an improvement in performance, he either stayed the same or roughly decreased.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119347492#Comment_119347492

The IOC doesn't set rules in different sports. It will eventually come down to individual bodies and more of them are gravitating towards that open category option. It is a nod to the fairness approach and TBF the science is still very incomplete on all of this.

Rothko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348437#Comment_119348437

One of the dumbest comments I've ever seen on this site.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348591#Comment_119348591

Yep, thinking that you can come up with some kind of formula - take your hormones for 6 months etc - for making a man perform at exactly the same level as an equivalent woman is just absurd. It's like trying to come up with a ballast (weight) handicap that allows a motorcycle to enter a horse race.

It's a stupid thing to even attempt, it's scientific quackery. A man on hormones is still a man and has no place in a womans sporting event.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348878#Comment_119348878

Moreover, if a person simply has to reduce their testosterone level to enter women's sport, then there's nothing theoretically wrong with a man (not a trans woman) dropping his testosterone levels to enter the competition. In theory, there can be no objection to that (if you believe that participating in sport can be reduced to testosterone %s).

mjsc1970

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348983#Comment_119348983

That's interesting

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348230#Comment_119348230

Do biological women belong in a biological mens division, conversely?

some here seem to think that’s grand - but they’re being swept up in these transphobic bans, too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119349541#Comment_119349541

Of course they don't belong there.

The principal must apply both ways.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119349559#Comment_119349559

Even though many have argued they compete at a distinct disadvantage?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119349570#Comment_119349570

They can defend themselves.

My position is crystal clear that no biological man should compete in a women's competition and no biological female should compete in a men's competition.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342221#Comment_119342221

If you believe that women can't have penises, that - according to trans activists - means we are transphobic.

So almost everyone in the country must be transphobic by that measure.

That's why the power of that label has weakened in value over the past number of years.

It's also why organisations like FINA and other sporting bodies have said enough is enough and it's about time we don't cower like cowards to this bullying minority of activists.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348437#Comment_119348437

Yes. If a person has fully transitioned by the age of 12 (fully transitioned ) then they are welcome to compete in womens sports. Just as the swimming world has agreed.

The rest of your post is nonsense and anti science and you seem confused beyond explanation.

Absolutely outrageous. What a total insult to the biologically female NCAA competitors.

https://twitter.com/SwimmingWorld/status/1547950609302560775

Quantum Erasure

no need to panic just yet...

The duo is among 577 graduating student-athletes in Division I, II and III nominated for the award. Schools nominate their athletes for the award, and conferences select up to two from each school. The preliminary list will be narrowed down to 10 athletes from each division, 30 in total.

she was the only one nominated / selected from Penn. State University, so she's not taking anyone elses place

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119350460#Comment_119350460

You act like “biological females” were recently banned from competing

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119351826#Comment_119351826

When all else fails pull out the "insult to women" card.

"Trans women are 'bigger' because they are 'men'"= look, here are many examples of biological women who are far bigger than biological men who play the same sport (not against each other as that's bad m'kay).

"Size has nothing to do with it. It's about what happened the male body when it went through puberty" = here are time comparisons showing a drop in performance when hormone blockers are taken/ what about people who transition before puberty?

"Puberty blockers are bad and experimental and woke parents just give them out" = puberty blockers are prescribed in rare instances on the advice of a team of experts including a paediatric endocrinologist, they have been in use for gender dysphoria since the 1990s, and for early onset puberty since the 1980s.

"Biological men have an advantage and will always beat biological women" = here are trans women who have been beaten by biological women. Here is a biological man who spars against a biological woman in boxing - and loses.

"12 year old boys would beat any senior national women's team" = ok. USA women's soccer team, lacking match time, played boys team of an exclusive academy in a friendlies 7 (U15s) and 5 (U17s) years ago - and lost. I'll give you that. But - we are not talking about biological mean directly competing against biological women. We are talking about Trans Women - who are required to pass certain hormone levels tests ( in fact all women are required to pass these hormone tests!) before they are allowed to compete - none of the players on the boys teams would pass.

"Hormones don't matter" = Ok, explain the changes in a trans man's body when they medically transition? Would you be happy for a medically transitioned man to compete against biological women who are not taking hormones?

"There are no trans men competing in elite/professional sport" = here are trans men competing in elite sports.

"trans women are taking biological women's places in sports" = hang on, we're still on trans men.. are they taking 'men's places'? Why aren't you upset about that, you know... fairness etc etc / Did women who were found to be intersex after they failed 'gender verification' following competing at elite level 'take a biological woman's place'? / Did Michelle Smith 'take someone's place'? She did, apparently cheat at the Olympics (but passed all the tests at the time)./ When did people become entitled to places?

"it's all an insult to women" = I'm a woman. Not even slightly insulted by trans women competing in sports. Bit miffed about the trope that trans women are always going to beat biological women as I find that both sexist and unsupported by the stats.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352926#Comment_119352926

A biological male on hormones is still a biological male, and so - on that basis alone - should not compete in a biological women's competition.

Even if every single biological male on hormones was guaranteed to come last, I'd still be against their inclusion into a biological women's competition on the basis that it's a biological women's competition.

I don't care if they're 160cm tall or 240cm tall. I don't care whether their testosterone levels are 10 nmol/L or 40 nmol/L. I don't care if they weigh 50kg or 150kg.

Because none of that is relevant. The clue is in the name: "biological women's competition".

And that alone is what should decide who is included and who is excluded.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352972#Comment_119352972

Events called "Biological Women's Competition" exist only in your imagination.

There is literally no such thing.

There does seem to be certain sports that have a "Women who pass specific tests as to their testosterone levels Competitions" - it's mainly women assigned female at birth who, as an adult, fail the 'gender verification' test who get kicked out of those.

Then there are the sports that have "Trans women can compete as long as they transitioned before puberty Competitions".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353179#Comment_119353179

By way of contrast, if a cat were allowed to compete at Crufts, it could no longer be called an "international dog competition".

You can call it something else, which predominantly involves dogs, but it's no longer a dog competition.

The logic is the same.

You know perfectly well that your position is invalid and destructive, but you're willing to accept that as long as the agenda is pushed through.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353243#Comment_119353243

Unable to produce even one competition called "Biological Women's Competition", and having overplayed the "insult to women" card, poster clutches at analogy based on two difference species.

Actual different species.

Up next: Orangutans are not allowed to compete in "human Competitions" which proves that trans women are not primates.

Bottom of barrel at risk of being scraped beyond repair.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353297#Comment_119353297

The logic is the same.

If a category is to mean anything at all, it must have defined boundaries.

Biological males - whether they are taking hormones or not - are contraindicated in a women's competition, by axiom.

CatFromHue

You seem to be focusing on individual outcomes and not the trend.

We know that the transition process doesn't eliminate male physical advantage so statistically transwomen will be overly represented at the higher levels of female sport.

Laurel Hubbard set a Junior record in New Zealand and stopped lifting in 2001. After transitioning, in 2012, she resumed weight lifting and eventually qualified for the Olympics. She was over 40 and the oldest weightlifter to qualify.

Lia Thomas was a poor to average swimmer at the elite level but after transitioning she starts to win at elite level.

Kate Weatherly was an average mountain biker as a male in the category below elite level but after transitioning became a top elite biker. She said she was taking hormone blockers when racing as a male so that confuses things here.

Fallon Fox used to compete in MMA. She competed at the level below UFC which is the highest level in MMA. She had 6 fights and lost once. The person she lost to went on to compete in the UFC. One of the women she beat ended up with a fractured orbital and needed staples to her skull. These injuries are very very rare in female MMA, not so much male MMA.

The trend is pointing one way here. That trans women have an advantage over biological women which is backed up by both science and results.

Identify how you want and live the best life you can. There is an issue when it comes to competing though.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353243#Comment_119353243

So this equivocation of women to dogs and cats isn’t insulting to women?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353436#Comment_119353436

You seem to be focusing on individual outcomes and not the trend

by definition elite sporting competition is literally about individual outcomes and not “the trend”

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353436#Comment_119353436

And yet the real statistics do not confirm your claim that statistically transwomen will be overly represented. The real statistics show that trans women are hardly represented at all. 45 years after Richards' won the right to compete in women's category as a professional tennis player the number of trans women competing at elite level barely make double digits.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353557#Comment_119353557

That's simply disingenuous.

If I were to say that cooking steak and chips doesn't belong in a baking competition, I'm not comparing steak to women.

What I am saying is that where categories exist, we must respect the firm boundaries of those categories.

But you know that.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353612#Comment_119353612

In relation to their numbers in society they are over represented.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353577#Comment_119353577

For the competitor yes, not for the administrator.

If I'm competing it's about my results, if I'm setting the rules it's about all the results.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353652#Comment_119353652

You can bake a steak? And chips?

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353677#Comment_119353677

If total number of elite trans women athletes across a wide range of sports is just into double digits in 45 years = overly represented : that makes a nonsense of the claim their (statistically miniscule) participation in any given sport threatens biological women's participation.

You can't have it both ways:

there are either so many trans women competing in women's sports that it have a genuine over all statistical effect i.e. we see trans women dominating/winning medals/setting records.

OR

There are so few elite trans women athletes that less than 20 across all sports in approx 50 years provide all the data we have.

Only one of those can be true. And it's the latter.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353652#Comment_119353652

The category that does not exist is "Biological Women's Competitions".

The category that does exists is "Women's competitions where competitors pass a testosterone level test regardless of whether they are 'biological' or not"

or to put it in your terms:

There are no "Competition where anything that can be baked is baked"

There are "Baking Competitions" - with heats that include bread, various sponges, meringue, diverse pastes (which means things like puff/filo/shortcrust/choux etc etc).

Wolves are not allowed to compete in Crufts - have you tried to make an analogy out of that yet?

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353243#Comment_119353243

Actually no it's not. It is the truth. You just can't handle the truth. So whatever advantage people think a Trans Woman has against cis Women is rubbish because they have a heavier skeleton to carry around.

Also you can not compare cats and dogs for one they are two different species and two they have no concept or understanding of any of these things. They are lower life forms.

The Logic is not the same because what you say is not logical at all.

People are able to think and understand there own actions. What is it to you anyway of someone decodes to change there Gender and by the way no one just decides oh ye I know I will change to be a female and become famous because for one it is a long process unless you have lots of money and even then it would take at least12 month's of your life and hormones especially Oestrogen are not something to be taken lightly or to be messed with. They change how you feel and act in the brain too and this can be even more to come to terms with over the physical changes.

Most trans people only change there Gender after they have had a breakdown. I know that is how it was for me and all others I know that are transitioning.

It's not to be taken lightly. Its no walk in the park.

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353772#Comment_119353772

Are the numbers of transgender people transitioning increasing or staying the same as over the last 50 years. The perception is the numbers are increasing.

If it's increasing then it would be expected the numbers competing would increase.

The other part is can a small number pose a threat to sport. Would you say if there was a small number of dopers that these pose no threat to sport.

You also falsely assume that because someone isn't winning and setting records that an unfair advantage doesn't matter. For example would you say a doper finishing 4th in the Olympics was okay if the top 3 were clean.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353954#Comment_119353954

You’re equivocating trans athletes to dopers now?

Trans persons don’t transition to cheat. This is my turn to call out something highly insulting

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353933#Comment_119353933

Nobody has said transitioning is a walk in the park. But that's not relevant to the question posed here.

And yes, my point stands. A women's competition exists for biological females; that's why the category exists. We create categories for a reason, and not for those categories to be trampled on by a minority of extreme activists. Biological males, irrespective of whether they've taken hormones or not, do not belong in women's competitions. End of story.

I wish trans people well in their new identity, live and let live, and all that kind of thing.

But when it comes to women's sport and safe spaces, that crosses a red line.

Most importantly of all, many trans people agree with me. You are speaking as if they have a uniform opinion that's shared with you. Many famous trans- people, including the former Olympian herself, Caitlyn Jenner, disagree with you.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354038#Comment_119354038

A women's competition exists for biological females; that's why the category exists.

The. Category. does. not. exist.

You are literally making things up.