Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355379#Comment_119355379

Highly (highly) unlikely to happen given the increased investment and coverage of female sports, it would also entirely eliminate females from events such as the Olympics and doesn't have a solution for contact sports (one unintended bad injury here and the entire thing would stop).

Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

I don't think the United States will be able to force it's will on the world in this area, even the IOC is going down the pragmatic route (while also passing it off like a hot potato whenever possible).

As said, you can be fair or inclusive, you can't be both, if you advocate for one you also have to explain why the other is less important. The rules of all sports are built on fairness above all else, not inclusivity (which is accommodated until it infringes on fairness).

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355433#Comment_119355433

Highly (highly) unlikely to happen given the increased investment and coverage of female sports, it would also entirely eliminate females from events such as the Olympics

Where do come up with that notion from? As though there are not currently as it stands now, sports in which the top echelon is comprised of women athletes! #fearmongering

As said, you can be fair or inclusive, you can't be both

I didn't say that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355459#Comment_119355459

If you believe that sport should be segregated based on gender rather than sex, where do non-binary trans athletes compete - who identify as neither male nor female?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355430#Comment_119355430

Did you even read that article? It goes through multiple sports where _women's teams_ are starting to get equal exposure and footing as men's teams. Not where they actually play each other.

I don't think "so little" of elite female athletes, I'm just not blind to reality.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355484#Comment_119355484

I don't believe that. Did you read my earlier post at all

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355379#Comment_119355379

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355499#Comment_119355499

I see, so your preference is that sport should have no sex or gender limits?

A kind of anything goes approach for every sport?

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355390#Comment_119355390

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing here.

I posted the link to the 2020 Summer Olympics so you can check it all out for yourself, what I posted is correct though. The single biggest differentiating factor is biological sex, not race or height or arm length.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355459#Comment_119355459

Which Olympic sports have women athletes competing equally with men? The closest might be the mixed events, defined by there being a limit on the number of male competitors in a team.

As said, you can be fair or inclusive, you can't be both

I said that (as have sports ruling bodies).

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355562#Comment_119355562

I'd say there's skill based events such as the equestrian ones to be fair.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355508#Comment_119355508

You got it!

Men and Women both get to compete in War, so I think they can adapt to the big wide world of civil contact sports, too.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355552#Comment_119355552

No you posted to a link that doesn't show that. I'm not doing the heavy lifting of proving your claim. The link didn't do the heavy lifting for your claim, either. You haven't provided any evidence and I don't need any to refute it.

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing here.

That's a bit reductive, the whole point of the site is the sake of talking.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355620#Comment_119355620

So women and men should compete in boxing, the 100 meter sprint, and MMA?

Utterly bizarre.

I mentioned self-discrediting earlier. But this is just insane stuff you're advocating.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355610#Comment_119355610

Good shout, I was thinking sailing as well but that seems to be segregated.

Though I'd imagine we'd see sports using animals banned before we see open category only events at the Olympics.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355645#Comment_119355645

"Bizarre!" "Insane!"

These sound like arguments, but they aren't.

For the past several centuries at least, women have been treated as delicate property. I'm willing to bet when future generations in a post equality world just let kids play rough and tumble, without gender stereotyping them from cradle to college, we will see increasingly less clear distinctions in the physical aptitude of any of the sexes. It won't just be kids 'born to be women olympians' by their parents either.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355620#Comment_119355620

Is war an olympic event? Are females equally represented on the frontlines in war? (or even according to their %'s?).

That's a bit of a bizarre answer.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355671#Comment_119355671

War is far more gruelling than an Olympic event, with far higher stakes. Marches in full gear, just for a routine.

And you're telling me that can't possibly compete in Soccer/Football/Rugby together because of gender stereotypes, right?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355670#Comment_119355670

post equality world...

A world where women are forced to lose more and more and more to men, by being forced to compete alongside them, is not creating a "post-equality world"; it's creating a new and even worse inequality, and one created for the sole purpose that trans competitors can be involved in some equal-ish way.

As I said, it's mind-numbingly bizarre.

Some people say that many trans activists are pursuing a misogynistic agenda. Ideas like the above help me understand why.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355690#Comment_119355690

The only thing I find "mind-numbingly bizarre"

Is a man who says women gaining true equality would be tantamount to them losing power to men.

How the duck does that work?

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355670#Comment_119355670

In a Lalaland bereft of hard science and basic biology maybe. I know this nurture/culture stuff is fashionable and appealling but it's a bloody nonsense and proveably so. Even your example of just letting kids play rough and tumble shows clear differences between the sexes and these differences are even seen in monkeys and the great apes.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355293#Comment_119355293

You need a reference from a dissertation now to be convinced that biological sex plays a bigger part in physical performance in sport than race?

Get away out of that. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this stage.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355681#Comment_119355681

Honestly, I think you've lost it here.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355681#Comment_119355681

Some women can "compete" in war because of technology that narrows the clear gender gap, or they're extreme outliers for their sex and the armies that have brought women into their infantry forces have had to continually drop their standards to get them through the door.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355703#Comment_119355703

In those gorilla troops there are gender roles though.

In fact the silverback case study only reinforces the theory, since Silverbacks would instinctively treat their women as subjugated property. Suggests to this layperson that far from being disprovable nonsense, the gender dichotomy has played a critical role in the development of the species and in particular the distinct traits between male and females:

Male gorillas are more than twice as large as females and powerfully built. This underscores their evolutionary legacy of male contest competition and polygyny. Indeed, gorillas were long thought to exist almost exclusively in harems, small multi-female groups led by one powerful silverback. Despite the herculean strength and sharp canine teeth of silverbacks, gorillas are vegetarians. Their powerful bodies are used only for fighting each other.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/beastly-behavior/201606/lessons-about-gendered-behaviors-mountain-gorillas

If we become a species with higher parity in gender roles why would we not develop with parity in physical performance as well.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355756#Comment_119355756

If we become a species with higher parity in gender roles why would we not develop with parity in physical performance as well.

Eh no. We won't. Because biology.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355734#Comment_119355734

If you don't want to support your arguments either, I'm not gonna do it for you.

Maybe I'd be arguing for the sake of it if I presented a bunch of conjecture, refused to back it up then attacked people for asking me for proof of my claims.

Bizarre to see liberal men use terminology I'd only expect from redpilled MGTOW dudes.

"They want equality so... here they are!"

It doesn't matter in some sports, but having a significant physical advantage due to different biology is simply unfair. I don't know why there's even an argument. And this observation does not mean I hate transwomen.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355737#Comment_119355737

You're entitled to that view.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355749#Comment_119355749

We live in a society with gender roles and stereotyping, just like the Silverback Gorillas example, the correlation is unsurprising.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355798#Comment_119355798

I would say that it is interesting to see the same reductive reasoning play out twice the same way for the same argument (OEJ went down the same rabbit hole many months ago) and to be fair, you got to the logical conclusion of that direction much faster.

Though "war" was a bit further out of left field than others (we are of course counting all the open world records set by female war vets 🙂).

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355756#Comment_119355756

Good jesus... Do you even science? And extremely basic science at that. It seems not and this softer than a nonagenarian knob on social studies everything is a social construct nonsense is getting in the way of actual observable reality and hard facts.

Gender roles in gorillas. Of course there are, because their sexual dimorphism is high. It literally points this out in your quote. They're are more than twice the size of females. No matter how you would raise a female gorilla she's going to get slapped into mush the first time she pisses off one of the males. The article* goes on(in a torturous way) to say yep it's a mixture of nature and nurture, but some fundamental differences remain.

Men on average have around 50% more upper body strength than women and around 30% more lower body strength. Women have smaller hearts and lungs, wider hips and less bone and muscle densities. These are hard biological facts. Now we can point to taller stronger women, but they're outliers, precisely because they're not the norm and even these outliers are dwarfed in number by above average men and male outliers are even further out.

As for the notion of us becoming a species with higher gender parity magically developing parity in physical traits, I suggest you reread on the origin of species and how long such evolutionary changes take.

*and I don't know why they're so surprised that because of environmental pressures some otherwise lone male and female gorillas grouped up away from the harem setup. This kinda flexibility has been observed in great apes before. They're intelligent animals and quick to adapt to environmental changes. It's how we came along. We're the most adaptable of all, around some basics, and this is very much the case in our sexual and reproductive strategies. .

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355841#Comment_119355841

Good jesus... Do you even science?

I did preface myself as the layperson. I'm a mechanical engineer; not an anthropologist, sociologist, biologist, geneticist, athlete, OB-GYN...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355670#Comment_119355670

It's ironic that the person most requesting scientific evidence wants us to unquestioningly accept that "trans women are women".

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356030#Comment_119356030

are all women female?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356039#Comment_119356039

Nah, not getting into these rabbit hole linguistic games. You've done this kind of thing before. It's well rehearsed.

All I'll say in response to your question is that no biological male can ever become a woman. Ever. Period.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356056#Comment_119356056

All you've done is play linguistic games? Biological this, biological that.

I guess turnabout isn't fair play. Shuck a duck.

Overheal

Like it's in the name you used yourself: Trans Women.

That's like saying Orange Potatoes aren't Potatoes because they are orange. This is very simple semantics with Sets I would have thought.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356071#Comment_119356071

I wouldn't be bringing language into it either, unless we're going to start boiling some couch potatoes :)

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356093#Comment_119356093

How about Mens league & Birthing Persons league?

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356144#Comment_119356144

To be fair, there is a concerted effort to remove the qualifiers for a lot of sports, e.g. when the ladies team play it's reported as simply "manu v liverpool".

Right now it's the Womens's World Cup and World Cup, either mens gets added or Womens gets dropped.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356060#Comment_119356060

Can we just summarise things...

You believe that:

• trans women are literally women and trans men are literally men
• trans women have no advantages in women's sport if they pass through puberty and take puberty blockers / undergo surgery
• sport should be an open contest where men and women compete together on every sport, including boxing and MMA
• gender is not a social construction, it exists, so there are biological roots to binary and non-binary genders

My position is that:

• 99.5% of the population are male or female, and identify as such. Those who identify as trans- are also biologically male or female; you cannot ever switch between these
• trans women have significant biological advantages in women's sport by passing through puberty, even if they subsequently take puberty blockers
• sport should be as it currently is, divided by biological sex and not by the subjective concept of gender
• gender is a social construction, it doesn't objectively exist

I think that's a fair characterisation of our positions.

And it's abundantly clear that my side is rooted in evidence, biology, reality, fairness, and equality.

And your side is rooted in none of these five criteria.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356194#Comment_119356194

It's like you've made no good faith effort to understand my position at all. 'Bizarre and insane!'

No I repudiate your summary, it does not characterize my position.

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355790#Comment_119355790

Is your position not that men and women are the same and transgender women athletes have no advantage as if they did it would be cheating. To claim otherwise is similar to racism. The science presented to to say that transwomen have an advantage is junk.

Now where have you presented evidence to back it up. As I said earlier I'm willing to change my position if you have data to support this because much of what you have presented is conjecture and deflection. You've gone from sport to war to gorillas and none of it supports your conjecture.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356217#Comment_119356217

Actually, all four points are accurate. You have backed up all of them throughout this thread.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356236#Comment_119356236

No I fundamentally disagree, especially with this nebulous and semantically feckless statement:

trans women are literally women and trans men are literally men

or this one @J.O. Farmer

men and women are the same and transgender women athletes have no advantage as if they did it would be cheating.

And to the contrary @eskimohunt , I've backed that up throughout this thread.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356266#Comment_119356266

I phrased that sentence in light of your repeated chanting that "trans women are women".

If you believe that to be true, then my phrasing is accurate.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356039#Comment_119356039

Yes. The female human with XX chromosomes, a woman. Jut as the male human with XY chromosomes is a man. Beyond that is intersex, including transgender, a suite of congenital and/or chromosomal and/or developmental "faults" or conditions. This is proveable by very simple repeatable criteria regardless of culture. It's reductive and impersonal, but that's what good science always is, otherwise it couldn't and wouldn't have progressed and we'd still be running off superstition, emotions and nebulous unproveable cultural imaginings. Oh but we've always had "trans" people in history... Well much of that can be attributed to a current re-interpretation of history, but even if we leave that aside; we've also always had prophets and demigods walking among us and do so even today. They are quite sure they are, their followers are quite sure they are. This does not mean they talk to god, are gods, or that god itself exists.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356071#Comment_119356071

It really isn't. It's obfuscatory rhetoric based on currently en vogue sociopolitics. Trans women, or men are definably different sets. Literally by definition. The difference between your vague "definitions" and my science is no matter where you go in the world or in time mine holds true and is repeatable. The results will always be the same, whereas your definitions wouldn't be even 30 years ago and might not 30 years hence, or in different cultures.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356274#Comment_119356274

Your phrasing is potentially misleading and I don't endorse that statement as is.

Trans women are women; they are not literally born-female women. Not sure if you were trying to conflate, but I wanted to make the distinction clear. Semantics obviously don't change the circumstances of one's birth. Womanhood seems like an important issue for feminists, women, and trans women, intersex persons, etc. who may all ascribe different value and self-attribution to it. I don't have the attribution to it to argue whether it is entirely a social construct or not, I can see how nurture/nature play roles, but I certainly don't want to fall into the trap of mansplaining womanhood, lol, I just know it exists and have seen a thing or two about it in my life.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356305#Comment_119356305

You believe that trans women are literally women; a subset of the wider category of what 'women' means. You can have biological women, and you can have trans women, and intersex women - and they're equally as women as each other in their variability, yes?

If yes, then that's what I meant by my statement.

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356266#Comment_119356266

I can't be bothered looking for your posts but 1 said do women train to a target 10% lower than men. This would imply you think they have equal capability and in the context of the thread are the same would it not.

You also said that my position that transwomen having an unfair advantage was tantamount to saying transwomen are cheating.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356335#Comment_119356335

I'll rephrase: both genders, sexes, classes, have equal human potential. I'm convinced that ultimately (if things go well and we don't kill ourselves) Men and Women will achieve equal if not far greater parity in acumen and aptitudes the longer we foment a civilization on Equality. I'm not convinced the modern snapshot of contemporary athleticism is the final word on the superiority of one sex over the other.