Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.
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Not one trans women won a major tournament because there were so few trans people in the world and those that were had actual gender dysphoria.
What's happening today with 1 in 150 teenagers in some American states claiming they are trans is going to change all that, there is huge social contagion within gender identifying youth, its being pushed by white knights just like you the progressive types who believe they are championing a cause. There are so many problems with the gender movement but they are being pushed to one side, it will soon be a billion dollar industry to the medical community and at the moment its transphobic to question anything. More and more people are going to turn to the gender critical side.
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Gosh - is this thread about me or about the claim that transgender women will mean the end of women's sports?
Setting aside your comments about me - a person you know absolutely zero about bit feel qualified to engage in a spot of pop psychology to have a go - all you have is a conspiracy theory with nothing to back it up.
The facts are that in the 45 years since the Richard's ruling and the 18 years since entry into the Olympics was opened there has been one major medal won an a team sport - a bronze, by a transgender man who hasn't medically transitioned so in the eyes of the blah blah dire warnings crowd like yourself no transgender person has EVER won a medal.
But sure - try the "floodgates"/Peer pressure argument. We haven't heard that one since Marriage Equality was the topic.
You did say one true thing - there are few transgender people in the world. Ya'll must think women's sports is very fragile if it can be destroyed by a very few elite athletes among the very few transgender people in the world. Either that or you and the white knights like you don't think much of the abilities of women athletes.
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My apologies I thought it was you that started this thread,because a trans man beat a trans woman in a swimming meet - this was used as evidence that women have nothing to fear from biological males taking part in their sports.
Now when the exact argument that you used as evidence to refute the point ( in fact the exact same trans athlete wins) is used to make an argument against trans women in sport you claim that the same tired argument has equivalence with the marriage equality referendum. Bit of an OG on your part surely. You are making the same arguments that every trans right activist makes – move along nothing to see here and ignoring the many, many problems that are emerging with that ideology. There is a reason men and womens sports are separate and I know you know this you are just choosing to ignore it because it doesn’t suit your agenda. Do you not believe there is social contagion happening when it comes to gender identity?
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Can we not select/bold just the bit we want to respond to now?
In this case, it's this bit: "There are few transgender people" (therefore it doesn't matter that they are taking women's places in sport) - I disagree strongly that girls don't matter.
There may be very few (although recent reports disagree on that, as far as young people are concerned anyway https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/trans-schools-students-research-england-b2025994.html
and https://www.economist.com/britain/2017/03/04/how-british-schools-are-adapting-to-growing-numbers-of-transgender-pupils) but more importantly, every place a transidentified male takes in a women's category is not only a place taken from a biological woman but it also has a chilling effect on girls at all levels when considering sport at all.
Girls not practising sports other than obligatory PE classes is already a problem. No need to create an atmosphere where even the naturally talented ones feel they can't possibly ever be any good anyway.
Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW"Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#womenand their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"2 -
Most trans people don't get surgery and the rules around requiring surgery were only changed in 2015, which in practical terms only affected the 2020 Olympics. So, we've only really had one Olympic cycle with the current relaxed rules.
"As will the scientists who are of the belief that it is the release of hormones in the womb that triggers a fetus 'becoming' male."
That doesn't mean you can change sex as an adult or even as a child, by taking hormones. Lia Thomas is evidence of that. She can take hormones for the rest of her life, and it won't change the shape of her body from a sporting point of view. Hormones can be beneficial for trans people to give them a passing appearance of the other sex, but it doesn't change their sex. It seems like people had to see this with their own eyes before they were prepared to believe it, and of course, lots of people are still refusing to believe it.
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"it is the release of hormones in the womb that triggers a fetus 'becoming' male" - I seem to have missed this gem. Could you clarify please? Why the scare quotes around 'becoming': are you suggesting that it's something that the female body does, possibly at random, or perhaps depending on an algorithm of male:female ratios in the population that makes an asexual fetus 'become' male?
Only you'll have to pardon my female ignorance, merely having gestated and given birth to a number of babies, which of course makes me less of an expert on the matter than a man such as yourself (guessing here, but pretty sure all the same, going by the utter certainty with which you proffer such nonsense) but I foolishly thought it was the fetus itself, specifically those with a Y chromosome, that triggers the development of the testes within the fetus - and that these then produce testosterone. Since that's what testes do.
So the (male) fetus itself produces the testosterone, not the womb (as an aside, I see the old "disappearing woman" trope strikes again here). That would be amazing if the woman could produce enough testosterone to "make" the baby into a male without suffering masculinising effects herself. At least for those of us who think that biology is determined by our cells, and not something within our minds. Still, I think you'll find that's ALL actual scientists.
Perhaps you'll be able to point out where I've got that wrong though. 😉
Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW"Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#womenand their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"1 -
To be honest, I think that is one of those phrases that is designed to confuse some people into thinking what you said, but it's deniable at the end of the day when called out. The hormones are released in the womb, but not by the womb, which wasn't actually claimed, and you're right obviously that the fetus is male or female. It doesn't become one or the other.
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No surprise there!
We live in a modern world
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It's still mainly the fetus itself which produces the extra testosterone though. From its testes. Maternal levels of testosterone do increase gradually over the pregnancy when she's carrying a male fetus - but that is also triggered by the fetus, whereas the poster was clearly suggesting the opposite.
There's some deniability in the phrasing as you say - hence my request for clarification.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/096007609190012T
Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW"Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#womenand their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"0 -
Can we not let the mods deal with how people post?
I also mentioned the "floodgates" conspiracy theory but sure who needs facts.
Who said girls aren't important?
Honestly, are we still in the make stuff up then argue against it part of this thread?
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Most trans people are not elite athletes.
Same as most non trans people are not elite athletes. Not even the ones attempting gymnastic moves through semantic loopholes to explain the lack of wins by transgender athletes since they were allowed to compete in major sporting events.
This thread is about trans people who are elite athletes who are going to mean the end of women's sport apparently.
Thomas? You mean the Lia Thomas who was beaten by the subject of this thread?
Still not got your mind around the biological sex is not the same as gender thing have you?
Post edited by Bannasidhe on1 -
So you agree that it’s the male fetus that produces the testosterone then, nd not the womb - or rather the woman - that makes it “become” male?
As for snarky comments Im only replying in the same tone as you. Except mine are factually correct whereas yours…..
Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW"Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#womenand their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"1 -
On the "end of women's sport". If you have a category for biological women in sport distinct from men, and you change it to include men who self-identify as women, then that is the end of the category, by definition. It's a new category, maybe with the same name, but it has different characteristics, so it's different.
Whether women continue to compete in the category or not is a separate question. Last week a load of women cyclists decided that they didn't want to.
"Still not got your mind around the biological sex is not the same as gender thing have you?"
Of course, they're not the same. You can be any gender you want. But, your sex is fixed and doesn't change.
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I said "the fetus "becomes" male due to testosterone".
Anything beyond that is your interpretation of thing I did not say.
As for your 'facts' and 'tone' - where did I lecture you from a position of mis gendering? You went on a self righteous monologue about having a womb. Guess what - so do I. And like yours it has functioned. You do not get to play the you aren't a woman so you don't know card at me and not expect to get it thrown back at you.
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Holy scope change, Batman, it's almost as if the OP didn't start "We hear a lot how allowing transgender women compete in woman's competitions will result in biological (cis) women being disadvantaged to the point of destroying women's sport." without any mention of "elite" at all!!!!!
You're clearly an intelligent, experienced person who has read and maybe even discussed this topic. And you've formed you own views, which you want to advocate. Just on the persuasiveness aspect of advocacy, people aren't convinced by obviously evasive tactics. It works as a defence mechanism when you don't want to re-evaluate your stance. And it works if your advocacy is directed at fellow believers. But not for any wider audience.
Folk on the thread have already clearly pointed to one of the issues being the dissuasive impact this can have at all levels of female participation. But I suspect you understand that, and just don't want to actually have a discussion.
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There wasn’t previously any category for biological women in sport distinct from biological men though. That was the whole point of why the previous chromosome sex testing was discontinued, while the female athletes were determined to be female. It didn’t deter other women from competing, and they weren’t excluded from competition -
Use in Olympic screening
One of the most controversial uses of this discovery was as a means for gender verification at the Olympic Games, under a system implemented by the International Olympic Committeein 1992. Athletes with an SRY gene were not permitted to participate as females, although all athletes in whom this was "detected" at the 1996 Summer Olympics were ruled false positives and were not disqualified. Specifically, eight female participants (out of a total of 3387) at these games were found to have the SRY gene. However, after further investigation of their genetic conditions, all these athletes were verified as female and allowed to compete. These athletes were found to have either partial or full androgen insensitivity, despite having an SRY gene, making them phenotypically female. In the late 1990s, a number of relevant professional societies in United States called for elimination of gender verification, including the American Medical Association, stating that the method used was uncertain and ineffective. Chromosomal screening was eliminated as of the 2000 Summer Olympics, but this was later followed by other forms of testing based on hormone levels.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis-determining_factor
I think that also what’s meant by suggesting that the foetus develops as female and would develop female sex characteristics without the interaction caused by the SRY gene on the Y chromosome, providing it hasn’t mutated or doesn’t get activated.
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Id have to question the relevance of DSDs in the debate on trans women in female sports. Lia Thomas was born a biological male she has no DSD and went through male puberty and continues to benefit from the results of that. She either should be allowed to take part in women's sports because she has no material advantage or should not be allowed because she has one.
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But it doesnt. It produces testosterone because it is already male.
Your way of expressing that was frankly bizarre and misleading, which looked to me as though you do you didn't actually know. Turns out you were being deliberately misleading. Funny that you think that's better, but okay.
Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW"Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#womenand their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"0 -
"There wasn’t previously any category for biological women in sport distinct from biological men though."
There was. It was called women. Nobody needed to qualify it with the word biological though as there wasn't the same distinction between sex and gender before as now, but most people understood it as meaning biological sex.
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There was though, as far back as 1926. But it’s true too, it’s also fair to say that most people didn’t make the same distinction there is now between sex and gender - the understanding of both concepts has evolved in the meantime -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Weston_(athlete)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zdeněk_Koubek
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foekje_Dillema
Nobody needed to qualify it with the word biological any more than is there is any need to qualify it with the word biological now. The understanding that it refers to women as a social class distinct from men is still the same. No need to complicate anything unnecessarily, and I doubt it will be complicated unnecessarily either when the rules already reflect the idea that they refer to transgender females.
This idea that womens sports will go into terminal decline on the basis that transgender women aren’t prohibited from participating just hasn’t been borne out by evidence from history, and a couple of women threatening to protest is hardly an indication that women’s sports are suddenly in decline as if it’s happening already.
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The relevance of women with DSDs is that the same standards apply to them as apply to athletes who are transgender- sports organisations don’t deny that they are women, they don’t even attempt to establish whether they are or they aren’t. They base the criteria on athletes meeting specific hormone range criteria in order to be eligible to participate in certain events.
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The embryo doesn’t produce testosterone because it’s already male. That’s kinda the whole point of the interaction between genetics and hormones which determine the sex of the foetus. ‘Foetus’ referring to the stage of human development between 8 weeks and birth. Females still produce testosterone too, but testosterone is known as the male hormone, even though both males and females produce testosterone and oestrogen.
That’s why what’s misleading is to refer to females with disorders of sex development as males as determined by the idea that they have a Y chromosome. It’s why the chromosome sex testing was abandoned by the Olympics committee as unreliable - it was detecting an inordinate amount of women with Y chromosome who were previously unaware of the fact, and only became aware of it after sex testing -
No governing body has so tenaciously tried to determine who counts as a woman for the purpose of sports as the I.A.A.F. and the International Olympic Committee (I.O.C.). Those two influential organizations have spent a half-century vigorously policing gender boundaries. Their rationale for decades was to catch male athletes masquerading as women, though they never once discovered an impostor. Instead, the athletes snagged in those efforts have been intersex women — scores of them.
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You don’t think it’s already male before the development of testes? Never heard of DNA tests then? Or maybe you don’t know that the sex of IVF fetuses can be ascertained before implantation, ie well before the sex can be seen.
Its sex is there in every single cell right from fertilisation. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not a fact all the same.
Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW"Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#womenand their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"3 -
It doesn’t matter what I think personally, because biology doesn’t have the capacity to care for mine or anyone else’s feelings about our observations of phenomena in nature, but no, I don’t think the embryo is either male or female before the genes which determine sex are actually activated.
It’s precisely for this reason that there IS such controversy about the ethics of PGD testing for intersex conditions and the effects of being able to detect these, and a whole host of other genetic conditions, before implantation -
In 2015, the Council of Europe published an Issue Paper on Human rights and intersex people, remarking on a right to life:
Intersex people's right to life can be violated in discriminatory "sex selection" and "preimplantation genetic diagnosis, other forms of testing, and selection for particular characteristics". Such de-selection or selective abortions are incompatible with ethics and human rights standards due to the discrimination perpetrated against intersex people on the basis of their sex characteristics.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_diagnosis_of_intersex
The whole ethics of PGD testing are still hotly debated because of the potential issues which arise as a consequence of being able to determine and select the sex of the foetus. It doesn’t play out in women’s favour in societies where males are of greater value in those societies.
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Right. Well you’re the poster who had some weird theory about people feeding babies with “plant milk” before breast feeding was discovered so TBH I think I’ll leave you to your notions. (The only reason I even see your posts is because all Ignores seem to have been removed at the software changeover.)
Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW"Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#womenand their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"0 -
Ahh sure you might as well, seeing as you’re going to continue to misrepresent what I actually said to suit your own narrative.
For what it’s worth, I haven’t given birth either. It’s probably worth mentioning as you appear to imagine that’s also a relevant criteria as to whether or not anyone’s opinion is either valid or invalid depending upon your own entirely subjective standards (though it appears to be more based upon whether or not they agree with your already held beliefs which are based upon sociology, not biology).
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I said "the fetus "becomes" male due to testosterone".
No, it doesn't. If you have IVF treatment, the reproductive endocrinologist can find out the sex of the embryo prior to implantation. All done in a petri dish - no testosterone to be spoken of.
Even before that, it is possible to select a sperm cell with an X chromosome to intentionally create a female embryo or a Y cell to intentionally create a male embryo.
Sex is determined at the moment of conception and is entirely dependent on the sex chromosome of the male gamete.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis
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Intersex people's right to life can be violated in discriminatory "sex selection" and "preimplantation genetic diagnosis, other forms of testing, and selection for particular characteristics". Such de-selection or selective abortions are incompatible with ethics and human rights standards due to the discrimination perpetrated against intersex people on the basis of their sex characteristics.
This is literally only an ethics issue BECAUSE it is possible to detect sex from the moment of conception. Were it not, no discussion about the ethics of PGD would exist.
Why is it that the people who refuse to acknowledge that humans are not sequentially hermaphroditic are willing to take themselves on these meandering linguistic maze runs just to avoid acknowledging that men cannot become women, and vice versa? What is it they gain, exactly, outside of the religious/tribal aspect?
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis
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Genetic sex yes, but not phenotypical sex, which IS dependent upon the activation of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome. That’s why the influence of testosterone is said to determine sex, because it causes the development of typically male sex characteristics -
Summary:
Medical researchers have made a new discovery about how a baby's sex is determined: it's not just about the X-Y chromosomes, but involves a 'regulator' that increases or decreases the activity of genes which decide if we become male or female.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181215141333.htm
What you’re talking about though is in the very specific context of IVF, which isn’t the typical means of human reproduction, where there isn’t the same ability to determine the sex of the infant before birth, which in some societies, due to the social stigma associated with people with intersex conditions, can mean they don’t survive very long after birth if their phenotypical sex is ambiguous -
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-39780214.amp
It’s even more unusual if they become elite athletes eligible to participate in Olympics competitions and then they find out that they’re not who or what they thought they were, and their elevated hormone levels mean they are prohibited from participating in specific sports events. The results of these tests can have devastating consequences for those women on both a personal and social level.
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I’ve already addressed the distinction between genetic and phenotypical sex in my previous post, no need to go over the same thing again.
There’s no meandering linguistic maze run in acknowledging that nature doesn’t have the capacity to care for classifications as determined by humans, and certainly you won’t ever find me arguing that humans have the ability to change sex at will, because that would just be silly 😒
I might as well add that if anything should be considered meandering, it’s the attempts by some people falling over themselves to invent new terms such as “biological males”, “biological females”, “trans identified males”, “trans identified females”, in an attempt to distinguish between men and women according to their own personal beliefs. I prefer to keep things simple and just say men and women, but for the purposes of being reasonable, I’ll make accommodations for people who don’t refer to people using basic terminology.
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