Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

72sheep

This is a meaningful personal battle (for a very tiny gender minority) but make no mistake about whose war you're fighting. The majority are eeking out an existence in rented/parents accommodation and their prospects are marginal. That much larger segment, of which most of the gender campaigners are a part, are not exactly making lots of gains and this debate is nothing more than distraction from that greater social injustice. It's all just divide and conquer. 

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799319#Comment_118799319

She’s miles off the NCAA records set by Katie Ledecky.

Anyone who bothers to follow women’s sport would know that second tweet is absolute hysterical nonsense.

But of course some people here only care about women’s sport when this issue arises.

amacca

Is there anything to be said for separate transgender categories in sports?

There are separate categories for say younger and older athletes during a marathon/race......never saw anyone getting upset about that.....

I see separate categories in lots of sports all the time...

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807496#Comment_118807496

You'd still be a sh*t for calling someone a drama queen in those circumstances, none of those points would change that.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807408#Comment_118807408

I didn’t avoid answering your three questions! I answered them thoroughly, and gave my reasoning for my opinion. I don’t have to justify anything. The onus is on people who wish to perpetuate discrimination against people who are transgender, to justify that discrimination.

The best you’ve managed so far amounts to nothing more than a declaration based upon your own personal feelings. You hardly expect that the example of one individual in the US is sufficient evidence in support of your argument that their participation has any impact whatsoever on the future sporting careers of many women?

Actually I take that back, that’s exactly what you expect. It’s rather silly then that you would suggest it’s Guardian readers are easily triggered when you yourself are imagining an appalling vista for the future of women in sports on the basis of the participation of one individual who is transgender not being subjected to discrimination which is not based upon science or biology, but on what appears to be nothing more than your own personal feelings.

I make no apologies whatsoever for being unable to condense my response to your nonsense into 140 characters or less, but you’re going to have to do better than your argument consisting of your own personal beliefs in order to justify perpetrating discrimination against any group in Irish society on the basis of any characteristics which are protected in Irish law.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807872#Comment_118807872

Ok. Personal beliefs? What is a woman? Not your personal beliefs.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808123#Comment_118808123

There is no unwarranted discrimination as OEJ says there is. Male women are not female women therefore any discrimination is perfectly natural, because these two things are naturally different. It would be madness to say one can't discriminate between anything.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808123#Comment_118808123

You probably missed it, but I made the point already that I wasn’t going down the rabbit hole of defining what is or isn’t a woman. It’s just of no interest to me whatsoever and it doesn’t add anything to any discussion. Whatever you choose to define as a woman is entirely up to yourself, and other people are equally entitled to disagree. I don’t care for the question one way or the other any more than the question of what is a man.

My interest is solely from the perspective of human rights, and in accordance with that philosophy, it begins by declaring that all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. Ok that’s pretty much the first article once you get past the preamble, and article 2 is worthy of note too, and article 3…. oh feck it they all are really, but the first two articles are a good basis from which to start -

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808184#Comment_118808184

worthy of note:

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808289#Comment_118808289

I've seen this thrown about a lot.

Can you show me where it says Lia Thomas is the #1 ranked swimmer in all of the NCAA? I just can help but notice you and others saying it a lot but providing nothing other than a picture which says it and no link to where the picture came from.

I mean, I struggle to understand how anyone can come to that conclusion considering all of the variables and disciplines in swimming in the first place.

I also struggle to understand how winning one NCAA title as a 5th year and finishing 5th in another race makes her the #1 ranked swimmer in college.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808289#Comment_118808289

There’s nothing particularly noteworthy about your producing that image, only that it serves as evidence, if ever it were needed in the first place, that you have fcukall interest in either science or biology as it pertains to the participation of transgender athletes in women’s sports.

Granted the first clue was your use in your original post of the terms ‘anti science’ and ‘anti biology’, as if either term had any legitimacy. Admittedly the use of those terms is what piqued my interest in your original thread, which got no traction whatsoever until it was merged with this already existing thread.

Did you even bother to investigate the source of the claim in the image, or did you simply take it as fact because it sounded about right to you and supported your already existing beliefs? I did the legwork, and while there are a couple of references to the source of the claim, there is no evidence to support the actual claim itself -

“We fully support Lia Thomas in her decision to affirm her gender identity and to transition from a man to a woman. Lia has every right to live her life authentically,” the letter read. “However, we also recognize that when it comes to sports competition, that the biology of sex is a separate issue from someone’s gender identity. Biologically, Lia holds an unfair advantage over competition in the women’s category, as evidenced by her rankings that have bounced from #462 as a male to #1 as a female. If she were to be eligible to compete against us, she could now break Penn, Ivy, and NCAA Women’s Swimming records; feats she could never have done as a male athlete.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/02/03/lia-thomas-penn-swimming-teammates/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=wp_main

I don’t find anything particularly interesting about Lia Thomas if I’m being honest, though I can appreciate and understand how and why other people who are not me would consider Lia Thomas an inspirational role model. Brooke Forde who was competing against Thomas isn’t shy in making her opinions known on the matter -

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/brooke-forde-i-will-not-have-a-problem-racing-against-lia-thomas-at-ncaas/

However what’s most notable of all really is the unusual set of circumstances which led to Thomas, who we would otherwise never have heard of, coming to the attention of the Daily Mail in the first place -

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/lia-thomas-transgender-swimmer-ncaa-11647488571

https://www.newyorker.com/sports/sporting-scene/how-one-swimmer-became-the-focus-of-a-debate-about-trans-athletes/amp

And no doubt there will be many, many more people who are transgender will come to the attention of the Daily Mail should they attempt to achieve anything beyond the limitations of the imaginations of their regular, and a fact well-known by the Daily Mail, audience of easily triggered readers.

bewareofthedog

I've said this before.. the fact that discussions like this are entertained let alone farcical idiocy like this being actually implemented shows how much of a stranglehold the lunatics have over the asylum. Total and utter lunacy allowed to manifest itself by a high ranking convention of cowards.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118806100#Comment_118806100

She is an elite swimmer.

I think elite athletes have 'advantages' which makes them elite. These can be physical, genetic, psychological.

Whether her 'advantages' are greater than the swimmers she is competing against depends on whom she is competing against on the day.

Obviously Thomas did not have greater 'advantages' than Iszac Henig given Henig beat her.

Used to be these 'advantages' were called abilities and talent. Few people have them when it comes to sports. Even fewer have them in abundance.

Do you not think every successful elite athlete has an advantages over their competitors?

Could anyone off the street be a Williams sister?

A Johnny Sexton?

A Tom Brady?

A Megan Rapinoe?

Or do all of them have 'advantages'?

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807726#Comment_118807726

That would just encourage this nonsense more

What other species on this planet changes there sex?

Feel sorry in a way for trans because There absolutely brainwashed from media and doctors and the Internet

Multipass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808598#Comment_118808598

Frogs.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808294#Comment_118808294

Wonder if anyone had told Katie Ledecky?

She's going around thinking she's ranked #1 but apparently all the official sources are incorrect.

Ledecky wasted her time consistently winning as in the mind of the "we care about wimmenz sports" posse she doesn't even exist.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808644#Comment_118808644

I know the point you’re getting at, and I was going to get to Katie Ledecky.

She’s not in the NCAA but I can’t find anything, anywhere that has Lia Thomas as the number 1 women’s college swimmer.

Also agree with you on women’s sport and the fact they couldn’t give a shite about it at all. Anyone who has given women’s sport a chance would know that Lia Thomas is nowhere near at the top of her discipline.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808598#Comment_118808598

Clownfish, wrasses, moray eels, gobies and other fish species are known to change sex, including reproductive functions. A school of clownfish is always built into a hierarchy with a female fish at the top. When she dies, the most dominant male changes sex and takes her place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_change#:~:text=In%20animals,-A%20clownfish%20%E2%80%93%20a&text=Clownfish%2C%20wrasses%2C%20moray%20eels%2C,sex%20and%20takes%20her%20place.

https://www.inverse.com/science/animals-can-change-their-sex

You could have just googled it. But that wouldn't have confirmed your bias.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808668#Comment_118808668

Clownfish is a very fitting term

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808667#Comment_118808667

Thomas hasn't won enough to appear on any world ranking lists I've been able to find.

TBH - must of the discourse about her reminds me of the kind of language used about Amelie Mauresmo.

Mauresmo was 'mannish', had unfair 'advantages', demands that she be test to make sure she was a 'real' woman.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808689#Comment_118808689

Goodness me thought Tommybrees. I asked a question and I was so sure the answer would confirm what I already believe I didn't bother to even google first. Turns out I was wrong.

Now, rather than admit I was wrong I'm going to make a snarky comment in an attempt to deflect from my mistake.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808316#Comment_118808316

When your eyes are telling you the truth AND you realise that most of the most prominent trans activists are saying that Thomas is doing horrific damage to the trans cause, and possibly destroying the future for trans kids, then you must must spend hours constructing a defence which you scarcely believe yourself.

All because you can’t concede that this is wrong. This is the worst case of the Emperors New Clothes I’ve seen for years.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807726#Comment_118807726

No need, the issue can be resolved very simply. Change all mens event to open category. Anyone can compete. The womens events will be changed to biological female events. All discussions regarding discrimination will then be moot.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808574#Comment_118808574

The Williams sisters got easily beaten by an average male in their sport.

Rapinoe and her team of "world beaters" got roundly beaten by a team of children.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808759#Comment_118808759

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/tennis-storm-over-mansized-mauresmo-1077214.html

I said the same language. And it was. Maurismo didn't conform to a set idea of what a woman should look like. Those attitudes are still with us.

Martina Hingis on Maurismo as " describing French player Amélie Mauresmo, who she had beaten in the Australian Open final earlier in the year as “half a man,”.

Thomas is a woman. And no amount of bullying by anonymous transphobes on the internet is going to change that.

And no-one believe for even half a second that any of those triggered by Thomas cares about women's sport.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808795#Comment_118808795

That dig at women athletes doesn't answer any question I asked.

It does give us an insight into how much you 'care' about women's sports tho.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808759#Comment_118808759

Have you any proof there that Lia Thomas is the NCAA’s #1 women’s swimmer?

Just asking again in case you missed my last post.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808802#Comment_118808802

Your response goes to show how honestly you are arguing.

The whole premise of this thread is that it is unfair for men to compete with women as more often than not, men are superior and an elite woman would be nowhere near the level of an elite male.

If mentioning the FACT that elite women are often beaten by average men when completing side by side is perceived as a "dig", then what's the **** point in talking to you.

How is anything I said a dig?

How does it show how much I care about women's sport? I'm not a fan of women's sport, but that doesn't mean that I think women should be expected to compete with biological men in a women's only event. I am not a fan of under 16's soccer but I also don't think that adults should be allowed play against them. You can have an opinion on what's fair or right without "caring" about the sport.

deconduo

She was 10s slower than the fastest man pre-transition and is 10s slower than the fastest woman post-transition. Seems like a pretty strong argument in favour of trans athletes, not a point against them.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808836#Comment_118808836

Will you take Swimming World magazine (probably not)

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/a-look-at-the-numbers-and-times-no-denying-the-advantages-of-lia-thomas/

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808853#Comment_118808853

Yet, no-one has been able to provide a shred of proof that this alleged advantage transgender women have in sports exists in the real world.

The whole argument is framed in terms of transgender women being exactly the same as cis men, and cis men are better at sports then women QED.

But that framing does not hold up to scrutiny either. It is demonstrably true that there are sports where women have a genetic advantage over men. So #notallsports.

The same few sports are mentioned time and time again - as if swimming and weightlifting are all there is - or are they the only sports people can find a transgender woman participating in at a high level?.

A nod at soccer or tennis, a brief mention of rugby as those are the popular sports and wimmenz play those.

Would a transgender woman have an advantage in gymnastics floor exercise?

How about shooting?

Archery?

Sailing?

Surfing?

Cricket?!?!

Darts??

I keep providing links to support what I am saying - that is how honestly I am arguing.

In return there are ... opinions.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808941#Comment_118808941

But yet she lost the 200 free at the NCAA Championships?

That doesn’t answer my question. That article said she’s the #1 in the 200 free. You have been claiming she’s the best in the NCAA period, while others have been posting tweets saying she’ll be the best ever, without having any idea about women’s swimming.

What proof do you have of any of that?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808941#Comment_118808941

No, they won't accept that. In a couple of years when the rankings points build up then they'll change their argument to something else. FFS remember that we're literally wasting our time with a discussion about whether men are stronger than women.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808963#Comment_118808963

Factually, yes, denser bone mass and bigger muscles and lung capacity helps in all of those sports. Archery, darts and surfing need stability as well, which is helped by the shape of the male pelvic bone vs. women, sailing and cricket are hugely dependent on strength (ability to swing a bat fast or get the sail in position quickly to move onto the next adjustment).

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808928#Comment_118808928

I am not in the habit of examining the genital area of athletes of any gender - I'll leave that to you.

And where did I compare Thomas to YOU? Are you an elite swimmer? Have you ever competed in any sport at the highest level?

Are you claiming all cis women share the exact same emotional, physiological, and biological characteristics?

Are we all just identikit clones in your world view?

I'm off to win Wimbledon in that case.

I would say that based on your posts I don't share much with you apart from age and the luck of being born in a biologically correct body.

I seriously doubt you share many characteristics with a young, elite athlete from an Ivy League College in the U.S. of any gender.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808989#Comment_118808989

Hmmm...

Jury is still out on the alleged man are better at ALL sports trope.

What has been true is men have benefitted from better funding, better training, better facilities. Let's level that playing field before any definite conclusions can be drawn about ALL sports.

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/women-endurance-sports/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808963#Comment_118808963

What?

In the majority of sports, where strength and speed are vital in order to win, men have an advantage. In gymnastics andother sports which are more suited to women eg certain gymnastics etc, women have an advantage. That's why we segregate sports into male and female.

Male and females are different. Doesn't matter how or what you identify as. That's not an opinion.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808996#Comment_118808996

I asked you simply if you consider Thomas to be a woman biologically scientifically physiologically equivalent to myself (I should have stipulated myself at Thomas’s age maybe) and you quite clearly do believe that it is possible to change sex by simply changing your name and adopting all the mannerisms and traits of people born to the sex that you wish to be. That is entirely your prerogative of course and I don’t wish you any ill will.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809018#Comment_118809018

Ffs. Here we go.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808978#Comment_118808978

“No not that proof!!! A different type of proof!!! Men are NOT stronger then women!!!”

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809065#Comment_118809065

What about the other sports?

We are being told by you and your cohort that women's sports are threatened by transgender athletes.

Now, suddenly, it's only in specific sports that require certain physical abilities where transgender women WILL have an advantage over cis women - do we ignore the other sports then? The one's a lot of women participate in?

Are there hoards of big, fast, strong, transgender women sweeping the boards in the specific sports you are so concerned about to provide a verifiable data set?

Guess what - in the sports you mention some cis men and cis women are born with the genetic advantage of being bigger/stronger/faster than other cis men/cis women. What should we do to make that fair?

I have heard left-handed tennis players over 6 foot tall have a serious advantage when serving - should we ban them?

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809094#Comment_118809094

You know how swimming works, right?

There are multiple disciplines over multiple distances.

You have claimed that Lia Thomas is the #1 ranked swimmer in the NCAA. And your proof is that she is the best at one stroke over 2 distances, and she didn’t even win one of those races at the NCAA Championship.

Are you pretending that you don’t know this or are you actually this misinformed?

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809018#Comment_118809018

Not sure why you quoted ultra-endurance sports again as I answered it a couple of pages ago last time you posted it.

Males may not be better at all sports but are better at the vast majority of them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809120#Comment_118809120

It's very **** simple. If sports are segregated into male and female categories, only allow females and males to compete in those categories.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809065#Comment_118809065

Women gymnastics events are different from males to reduce the strength requirements, there's a few videos out there of male gymnasts performing female routines, again, it's not a level playing field.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809080#Comment_118809080

Do not dare tell me what I do not and do not believe. You do not have that right.

I believe Thomas is a woman who was born into the biologically incorrect body. So she obviously is not biologically similar to a woman born into the biologically correct body - but here is the rub. Not every women born into the biologically correct body has a body that is biologically correct. Sometimes something goes wrong. 1 in 5,000 women are born with MRKH syndrome. Are they women even though they do not have a womb?

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/mrkh-syndrome-what-is-women-infertility-health-mayer-rokitansky-kuster-hauser-a8622546.html

I do not believe anyone would go through what Thomas is being subjected to on a whim. I believe she is incredibly brave and I am glad that science has advanced enough to be able to assist her in correcting the changes nature made.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809149#Comment_118809149

They do have that right.

And your word salad about what you believe comes down to the fact that you think a biological man is a woman.

24fedfc4852063de91e40ff32851f717ac0f4e9201dc25374a4d11eb71c6ad85_1.jpg

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809183#Comment_118809183

Im not bothered. The entire world can see exactly what’s happening here and even the most ardent notable trans activists can accept that what you see is what you get here and that Thomas shouldn’t be allowed to compete any further. If a few people want to sit in the corner facing the wall with their fingers in their ears then let them.

Mr Bumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809018#Comment_118809018

Performance, ability, and physiology are three different things.

You are constantly conflating them. Black is not white.

There is no debate about women transitioning to men being an issue in male sports, nobody complaining that someone with the physiology of a woman who identifies as a man, has an unfair advantage.

Why?

Because they don't have an unfair advantage. There are no women identifying as men winning male varsity swim meets in America.

There are men identifying as women winning varsity swim meets in America. Because they have an unfair advantage.

Black is not white and rights come with fairness and responsibility. If rights conferred on one group cause a problem for another, this should be acknowledged. Instead of doing that, you are warping reality to suit your wishes, trying to argue pears are indeed apples.

You pretend that the distress this issue causes for many female athletes is just bigotry, that trans' distress is somehow more worthy.

I see this a lot across all the platforms, usually accompanied with much hormonal angst and abuse aimed at ordinary people with ordinary thoughts.

Hectoring and lecturing.

Bad idea.