Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456940#Comment_119456940

“It's funny that he brings up race in sport as if it's an argument against it when it really isn't. Elite middle and long distance running has been absolutely dominated for years by the Ethiopians and Kenyans who seemingly have a natural gift for this kind of activity.”

are you suggesting we segregate the Ethiopians and Kenyans? What

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456950#Comment_119456950

They as good as do, by arguing that gender (intangible) trumps biological sex. George Takei referred to it as "so-called 'biological sex'". 🙄

And yet, he's a same-SEX attracted man. Biological sex matters, and can't be just spirited away by a feeling.

Thanks for your civil posts by the way. Because usually people arguing what you argue are never ever civil.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456979#Comment_119456979

That's not what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that when one group has an advantage, the elite level tends towards those that hold that advantage. If you look at distance running where one group hold dominance, you can ask yourself whether that has been good for the sport? At least in that instance you have regional competitions that give others a realistic aim.

The retained advantage of having gone through male puberty puts biological women at a disadvantage. What you will then see is the elite level filling with transwomen to the exclusion of biological women - because they can't compete or is too dangerous. At that point you may as well wonder why segregate sport at all since it is biological men that are excelling at both.

And you think this is inclusive?

Strumms

Personally, if this becomes a thing I can see female athletes protesting, disrupting and boycotting events… id fully support them.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456940#Comment_119456940

The irony is that if all segregation was dropped, the numbers of trans athletes would also be 0 effectively (along with 0 female athletes at events such as the Olympics, World championships etc., bar mixed team events).

On the other hand, without weight segregation, we wouldn't have Conor McGregor anymore, so every cloud.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457201#Comment_119457201

There’s no evidence whatsoever for that presumption though. The rules are what limits anyone’s participating in sports, not their anatomy. Well, the rules and being told they don’t belong in the sport, and if you want an example of irony, being subjected to all manner of horrific abuse -

https://amp.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2021/jul/30/murky-elite-sport-women-tokyo-games-abuse-sexualisation

https://amp.dw.com/en/indias-female-athletes-contend-with-sexual-harassment-in-sports/a-62110783

https://www.sportanddev.org/en/article/news/sexual-harassment-sport

Harassment which scores of women involved in sports receive on a daily basis, even easier for anyone who is of a mind to do so in the online virtual space, who bear no consequences for their actions, egged on by their supporters. It’s an attempt to put people off something they want to do.

If you want another example of irony - it only makes people more determined that they won’t be shoved out of the sport, and they have their supporters too behind them, both women and men alike who don’t share your perspective.

Erica Sullivan put it well -

Many of those who oppose transgender athletes like Lia being able to participate in sports claim to be "protecting women's sports." As a woman in sports, I can tell you that I know what the real threats to women's sports are: sexual abuse and harassment, unequal pay and resources and a lack of women in leadership. Transgender girls and women are nowhere on this list. Women's sports are stronger when all women—including trans women—are protected from discrimination, and free to be their true selves.

https://www.newsweek.com/why-im-proud-support-trans-athletes-like-lia-thomas-opinion-1689192?amp=1

We could still have Conor McGregor, and we could have Erica Sullivan.

BruteStock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457349#Comment_119457349

This post ^ is the last stand of someone whose totally given up on a fair and honest debate.

Equating people who just want women to compete against women to sexual predators now? Sick!

Lets be clear the motivations of sexual predators and not frame it like they just want to hold them back from reaching their goals( because that's your smear for people who oppose men on the girls team) .. No. they derived pleasure from molesting girls. That's all there is to it.

DeadHand

An observation.

Most of the champions of male bodied athletes being allowed to compete with women have a thing in common: they know nothing about sport.

They never played it to any serious level. They don't watch it. They weren't interested in it until it was made into a cultural battlefield. They will not be interested in it when the battle moves on.

People who have participated significantly in sport understand the physical advantages males possess over females in that realm.

Perhaps more importantly, they understand the dispiriting effect of unfair competition.

Hence, you see few genuine athletes, current or former, come out in support of the participation of trans athletes in women's sport.

An experiment, for those inclined. Take the few users on this thread insisting that male bodied athletes should be allowed to compete with females. Tally up how many posts they have between them in any of the many excellent sports fora available on these boards. Few, if any, I predict.

These people spend more time on twitter than they ever spent on any sports ground. This accounts for the absurdity of their arguments.

Thankfully, the relevant organisations, who it can be assumed are peopled by those who know and love sport, seem to be taking the path of common sense over ideological derangement in this particular. This will represent a crucial defeat for progressivist extremism.

Women and women's sport will be protected.

As for the extremists, they will move on from sport to invade another world about which they know nothing, to tell the poor souls already there what they have been doing wrong, what they must do differently, and attempt to ruin it for all involved.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457438#Comment_119457438

Equating people who just want women to compete against women to sexual predators now? Sick!

Except nowhere in my post did I do that.

The point was being made that it was an inevitability that if men were permitted to participate in women’s sports, there would be no women in the top tiers of the sport.

Not only is there no evidence for this argument, but it overlooks a whole multitude of other factors which influence anyones participation in sports, ie - without even going near the top tiers, attempts are made to force women out of sports. There are numerous issues within women’s sports already which inhibit their participation, at every level, before they even make it to the top tiers where they are subject to abuse.

The issue of men wishing to participate in women’s sports is quite literally being blown out of all proportion, in proportion to the issues which women actually face in sports which has a far greater effect on inhibiting their participation.

There was no smearing of anyone whatsoever, regardless of their position, much as you might like to portray what I said that way, and then try and suggest it was a last gasp attempt having given up on fair and honest debate. You’re obviously working off a different understanding of fair and honest than I am by the way you interpreted what I said, but I’ll leave what I said where it stands, and maybe you could address the issues raised rather than dismissing them out of hand as if anyone has to actually agree with you that that’s all there is to it.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457541#Comment_119457541

An observation based upon your own prejudices, that confirms your own prejudices?

I for one, am shocked at this totally objective observation… revelation, even.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456672#Comment_119456672

Which of the facts presented are wrong?

DeadHand

@One eyed Jack

A contribution briefer than your usual walls of boring sophistry, though no less empty.

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457556#Comment_119457556

To be fair no women left in top level sport is an extreme which would firstly depend on enough good but not exceptional male athletes transitioning and secondly the sport. You will never see enough good athletes transitioning for no women left (I think).

I could compete as a man against good female athletes and get well beaten but I'm not a good athlete, if I was I would likely win. The male puberty advantage comes into play where you are comparing athletes of a similar level within their respective sex categories. The disadvantage of transitioning is less than the male female disadvantage.

Also the sport will impact it, some sports will have a greater male advantage. More skills based sports will be affected to a lesser degree though not unaffected.

What is true is that transgender women would be over represented compared to the general playing population at every level except maybe local club level where there will be a lot of clubs with no transgender athletes. That will be unfair on every woman displaced because of transgender women.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457780#Comment_119457780

Yet another astute observation based upon your own prejudices 👍

By that standard, I can’t imagine what you make of the walls of boring sophistry which make up the rules of participation in any particular sport. I’ve no doubt you’ve read them all, in spite of any evidence of ever having done so. Naturally enough, when they express a point of view which you share, their output is riveting and they’re making great and honest contributions and they’re as invested and interested in any sport as you are!

It’s really not incredible how that works.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457541#Comment_119457541

Funny this, because from what I've seen the very people celebrating the IRFU's decision are those who don't give a f*ck about women's sport until the trans issue is raised.

I don't know how people can always tell if someone on either side of the debate is interested or not interested in sports.

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457812#Comment_119457812

How would you know this?

Over 17 million people watched the English women's soccer team win the Euros, a lot of male golf enthusiasts log on to LPGA tour after PGA tour on weekends to see how Leona and Stefanie have done, plenty of people interested in Athletics have followed Sara Healy since her youth to see how far she can go, a huge number of people follow Katie Taylor, could it be that you like to make unsubstantiated claims to suit your own biases?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457802#Comment_119457802

The disadvantage of transitioning is less than the male female disadvantage.

I don’t know what criteria you’re using to make that comparison in order to come to the conclusion you have, but it’s clearly not true in the cases of athletes who we know have transitioned, and been subjected to vilification on an international scale. We also know it’s not true of athletes who have refused to undergo any form of attempts to coerce them to adjust their natural physiology which it is claimed bestows upon them an unfair advantage in the events in which they wish to compete in, and they too have received similar vilification on an international scale, with the intent to either have them conform, or push them out of the sport with the intended effect that it sends a message to anyone who might get any notions.

The sports won’t impact anything; the way any sport is organised is what has a greater impact on whether or not people are attracted to the sport, for any infinite number of personal reasons. It could well be for the fame and glory of international recognition, or it could be because they feel like they belong in the sport among people who they identify with, or it could be that sport offers them opportunities they wouldn’t have in other domains such as academia. Caitlyn Jenner, as an example, saw sports as an avenue to opportunities that wouldn’t otherwise have been available to them as a consequence of being dyslexic, and that’s what drove them to be successful, which, as we now know, success came with it’s own personal pitfallls -

Talking about the impact that struggling with dyslexia and gender dysphoria had on her sporting career, Jenner said: “Being gender dysphoric and dyslexic - that’s what made me down the line. When I got into sports, it became more important for me to succeed at sports and work hard at sports because of all these issues.”

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/other-sport/athletics/caitlyn-jenner-opens-up-effect-20829408.amp

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that boys or men would be over-represented at any level in women’s sports, or that they would be denying girls and women any place in sports. Even in the case of Lia Thomas where an athlete who didn’t qualify for the national competitions held Lia Thomas personally responsible for her failing to qualify, by suggesting that had Lia Thomas been excluded from participating, she would have qualified (the argument being that Lia Thomas took her place), this argument ignores the fact that the same athlete was eligible to qualify for her national team, and qualify and participate and represent her nation at the Olympics -

Reka Gyorgy, who competed at the 2016 Olympics for Hungary and now swims for Virginia Tech, wrote a letter to the NCAA, objecting to Thomas’s participation. 

“This is my last college meet ever and I feel frustrated. It feels like that final spot was taken away from me because of the NCAA’s decision … I know you could say I had the opportunity to swim faster and make the top 16, but this situation makes it a bit different and I can’t help but be angry or sad. It hurts me, my team and other women in the pool,” she wrote.

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2022/mar/21/lia-thomas-victory-at-ncaa-swimming-finals-sparks-fierce-debate-over-trans-athletes

Similar arguments were made in other domains that the equal participation of one group would be to the detriment of the dominant group, such as the idea of giving women the opportunities to participate as equals in the labour market would be to the detriment of men. History has shown that prediction to have been untrue, not that there was ever any truth to it in the first place as it was simply based upon fearmongering and the way things were then. They have since evolved and changed and it has been of greater benefit to everyone in society, and still there is nobody who is forced into anything as the argument is being portrayed here by way of suggesting that any woman would be forced into an unfair position such as having to fight Conor McGregor or anyone like him. There are plenty of men who wouldn’t lower themselves to McGregors level either, so I’m not sure why the argument exists that women would be forced to do so.

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458064#Comment_119458064

Your posts achieve nothing but to strengthen peoples opinions that fairness is the last thing to come into your mind when it comes to trans people in sports or womens spaces.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458106#Comment_119458106

I’m guessing you’re not familiar with the concept of respectability politics, though you practice it very well it has to be said.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respectability_politics

Imagine if I actually cared what people who are completely unknown to me thought of me personally, I might even shut up 😂

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458217#Comment_119458217

Maybe if you kept your posts a bit shorter and to the point, obviously it wont help people understand you any better but it would save people a lot of time before they give up reading and it would be better for the planet.

I have to say you can be funny but when you drag it out it gets very boring, using exceptions thinking you have a gotcha moment rarely works and certainly doesn't in your case.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119457802#Comment_119457802

To be fair no women left in top level sport is an extreme which would firstly depend on enough good but not exceptional male athletes transitioning and secondly the sport. You will never see enough good athletes transitioning for no women left (I think).

Though I think the original point is correct - that if all segregation were removed from sport then there would be no women in the top tiers of any sport that involves strength or speed. Of course, you can't say all sport because that includes the likes of shooting and equestrian where other factors are more important.

I made this point before, but it's worth repeating. These beliefs (myths) emanated from university campuses decades ago, based on research that showed the performance gap between men and women was reducing. Some people extrapolated from that to believe that if all social factors could be accounted for, then the difference would eventually reduce to zero. And if that were true, then there really would be no good reason to keep trans women out of women's sport. Now, we have actual data that confirms what most people believed anyway - that there will always be a performance gap, the argument has moved on to a different but related belief, which is just as false, namely that women's sport only exists because men were afraid of being beaten by women. It's a clever argument as far as it goes because you can't use data to refute it. But, the decision makers in sport aren't going to take it seriously.

I could compete as a man against good female athletes and get well beaten but I'm not a good athlete, if I was I would likely win. The male puberty advantage comes into play where you are comparing athletes of a similar level within their respective sex categories. The disadvantage of transitioning is less than the male female disadvantage.

Large road running races are a great comparator. When I used to run them as a mediocre middle aged runner, I'd finish around the 33rd percentile usually, and be beaten by loads of women, but they were nearly always 10-20 years younger than me, and much more competitive within their own sex. I can only recall a handful of women the same age as me, who'd beat me, and they were at a very high standard.

Age and sex are the two biggest factors and that's the reason why sport is segregated that way. That doesn't stop anyone from organising events segregated in other ways, or using handicap systems to equalise whatever advantages exist. I'd see that as a way forward for some forms of participative sport, rather than at the top competitive level.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458235#Comment_119458235

it would be better for the planet.

Of all the attempts to shame anyone who doesn’t agree with you into silence, that has to be the ultimate gotcha! Well done Sir/Ma’am 😂

JayRoc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456321#Comment_119456321

Boards? No, about 20 years I think. Thanks :)

StrawbsM

I think I would be in the elite category for scrolling. Based on the practice I get bypassing OEJ’s posts 😂

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458334#Comment_119458334

I won’t complain about your having any unfair advantages if you use the ignore function 😉

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119456918#Comment_119456918

 I want to see women being given equal opportunities as men have, and given equal recognition, respect and rewards for their achievements. That doesn’t have to come at the expense of men

It won't. They won't even notice.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458281#Comment_119458281

The discussion needs to start at A) why do we have separate categories and do we need them? B) If we have decided that we need separate categories what should be the criteria for allocation to those categories.

Regardless of the history of the categorisation (and undoubtedly there was a misogynistic element to it), today I would argue it is vital in order to be able to recognise female athletes for accomplishments. And if it is vital then there needs to be a criteria to govern who is eligible, and the argument needs to be over that eligibility.

In OEJ's "defence", as much as that makes sense, I believe they don't actually think there should be separate categories, so the logic of allowing transwomen into female sports is understandable.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458488#Comment_119458488

The evidence of a rise of so-called “MRA” types would beg to differ Podge - people who constantly play the victim as though women being regarded as equals in society has actually come at the expense of men.

I say people, because it’s not just men who portray men as the victims of women being regarded as being of equal status in society, there are women involved in portraying men as victims too. They noticed alright, but thankfully people don’t pay them that much attention, because they see their efforts for what they are, much like many of the grifter types who are making bank off stoking the ‘gender’ and ‘culture’ wars.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119458538#Comment_119458538

There will always be "types" who take any reasonable position and go **** mental over it.

If you mean equalising pay and prize money between men and women's sport then I would agree that there will be a massive uproar over that. Some of the points which have a kernel of truth in terms of the economics of the sports glosses over the historical disparities between them so its a lot more complicated then just "men's football creates more money so they should be paid more".

If you mean mixing the sports and essentially removing women's sports as I believe you have suggested in the past, then men won't even notice. It literally won't make a difference to them at all.