Black Monday 2022 - NFL Coaching Carousel

MileHighGuy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118577459#Comment_118577459

Yes, It would be nice to find out, or have it investigated.

Perhaps it is linked to the old Black players can't play QB trope. Or the push in previous years to move black players from QB to more athletic positions. A lot of current NFL assistants seem to have been QBs in college or backup NFL QBs. We may need to wait for the trickle down effect of Black QBs in NFL and college, to make it to the coaching pools.

It's possible that, even while elite NFL players are predominantly black, the general demographics of the US is still majority white, meaning lots of white people that either never played, or played at a low level, can still start out on a coaching career and progress from there. They effectively get in on the ground floor.

It's possible that black football players would rather play than coach, and it's possible they are better football players and more likely to make a team.

It could be that black athletes are more likely to find success in college and NFL teams, and actually are on the field playing, while players that flame out earlier get the chance to study the X's and O's of the game, and a foot on the coaching ladder. It is also worth noting that I can't think of any multi millionaire star player that has decided they want to get into coaching upon retirement. It seems like a needlessly grueling profession for a player that might be set for life.

That's just off the top of my head. Not implying there definitely wasn't a racial component when the trail is followed back. I think of it more as a Football (society) issue rather than an "NFL owners\GMs are racist" issue.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118576844#Comment_118576844

Reposting comments about an interview means absolutely nothing, it is the standard tactic that is used by anyone in power - quite frequently they are later proven to have done wrong. When asked a question the person with less power regularly has to swallow their feelings and work with or say nice things about the powerful person or risk their career.

Where is the evidence he is a nightmare to work for? Unlike some coaches who are destroyed by players after they leave I didn't see much/anything about Flores. Seems to have been leaked by the Dolphins to sully his name, if a nightmare to work with isn't accepting bribes to lose or tamper with a QB (likely Brady).

On whether he will reach a settlement, this doesn't need to be a case strong enough to scare them that he'll win just strong enough that they'll be scared of a) going to discovery or b) continued bad press.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118577595#Comment_118577595

There are plenty of coaches and GMs with history - examples are noted in the lawsuit.

Your breaking down of the opinions there isn't accurate.

No one is saying coordinators isn't a part of it, not even Flores from the relief he is looking for in his lawsuit.

As for offensive focus, the only defensive coach hired thus far this offseason is white. The coach hired last year with the least experience is a defensive coach who is white. The second least experienced coach last year is white and wasn't even a coordinator. Three years ago the least experience coach hired was a special teams coach who was white. Five years ago the two least experienced defensive coaches that were hired were white.

It takes serious mental gymnastics to look at all the evidence and not see race as being an issue with the coaching hire decisions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118577459#Comment_118577459

I mean I don't disagree with the rest of it but Jim harbaugh as a head coach took a 9ers team that had been a shitshow for years to a superbowl and if they didn't brush up against one of the great teams he'd have gotten to more and he has a brother who has won a superbowl. Its not a like with like comparison at all

eagle eye

If Bieniemy wants a HC job, and it appears he does, and doesn't get one then there are serious questions to be answered.

For me he was joint top candidate for a HC job along with Daboll, I really couldn't pick between them.

Like there's a lot of vacancies and he really should be getting one.

Realt Dearg Sec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118578017#Comment_118578017

Probably not the place to debate his record and I guess it's a matter of opinion, he was a good coach of course and I would have been ok with the bears hiring him, but his record doesn't reflect the enthusiasm for him, which is more easily explained by him being a big personality. but I think that was a very strong niners team, and he was blessed with really fantastic coordinators especially Fangio. Outside that year he's not pulling up trees exactly and his time at Michigan, before this year, had been very poor, but one good win over OSU and the interview requests are flying in.

But yeah somewhat beside the main point!

Jolly Red Giant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118578017#Comment_118578017

Harbaugh is a control freak - and I wouldn't want him anywhere near my team. But he does have a record for success. I suspect that the 'buzz' around him getting hired by an NFL team had more to do with his media team circulating stories than stuff coming out of team sources. He was reputed to being hired by the Raiders when they were already zeroing in on McDisaster - and it also appears that the Vikings were nothing more than lukewarm in their approach. There is a lot of speculation that this was all a ruse by Harbaugh to wrangle a big new contract out of Michigan.

Jolly Red Giant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118578343#Comment_118578343

I don't agree - as MHG pointed out - Bieniemy has a long history of issues dating back to his playing days and throughout his coaching career. On top of that - it is clear that Reid runs the KC offence and there are question marks over how much of a role Bieneimy actually has. I suspect that his failure to land a job has more to do with these and the likelihood that his character flaws come across in interviews - than the fact that he is black.

MileHighGuy

Doug Pederson in in Jacksonville. Probably a good hire - not sure why the wheels fell off a bit in Philadelphia so quickly after the Super Bowl win, and a chance to work with Lawrence, with the hopes they can do a Cincinnati.

I was sure they would've worked something out with Leftwich though, especially with the Baalke ultimatum, why is it so important to stand by a GM who has fired 4 head coaches in the last 4 years. The team he has built in that time is a total dumpster fire.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118580382#Comment_118580382

'Throughout his coaching career'??? The last issue I can find he was linked to was 20 years ago.

Working under Reid didn't seem to be an issue for Nagy getting his opportunity. It is as or more clear McVay runs his offense yet O'Connell and Taylor each got HC jobs after less time working under him and each just having 7 years of coaching experience.

You can bend over backwards to find potential excuses for every situation but I don't see how anyone can look at all the data and be naive enough to believe that time after time after time that it just happens that the white guy comes out on top in the process - especially given the open racism we see in the NFL, the long history of NFL blocking black players and coaches, and the way they have to continuously make weak rules for NFL owners to even appear to give black candidates a fair chance.

Jolly Red Giant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581879#Comment_118581879

Pederson is an a**hole - believes he has a divine right to treat people like sh*te. When the list of potential candidates came out for the Broncos he was the one name that I couldn't stomach. I was delighted when he wasn't invited for an interview. It is also a mistaken in the context of building a team around Lawrence - Leftwich was potentially (not the best) much better candidate. Ultimately Leftwich is in the same situation as Bieniemy - an OC who doesn't call the plays in a team with an elite QB.

Jolly Red Giant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581933#Comment_118581933

The issue isn't the when - it is the nature of the troubles he was involved in.

Again - I am not arguing that there is not a problem of systemic racism in the NFL and there is not an issue in the hiring of black coaches (and this is not confined to the NFL either - 1 black manager in the PL - 7 in the NBA (not as bad as the NFL but still not good given the number of black players).

I am arguing that despite Bieniemy being touted for many coaching jobs over the past few years - he still hasn't got a job. Since 2016 the following black coaches have been hired (many of them ahead of Bieniemy) - Jackson, Lynn, Joseph, Wilks, Flores and Culley. I would argue that this is not a particularly impressive list of names - I think that the fact Bieniemy couldn't get a gig has more to do with him than necessarily racism.

I think it is unfortunate that this issue is hanging on Flores and Bieniemy - there would be far more likelihood of it gaining traction with the likes of Culley, Raheem Morris (who I am shocked hasn't been getting attention), Ryan, Glenn, and Teryl Austin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118582072#Comment_118582072

That's an interesting take. Why do you think he's an asshole?

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118582153#Comment_118582153

If it isn't an issue of when then why did you misleadingly post that issues occurred 'throughout his coaching career'. If you said he had some issues early in his coaching career I wouldn't have responded. It isn't like coaches, GMs, or even owners have not had their own run ins with the law - Vrabel for example had issues when he was younger yet was hired with only 7 years experience coaching and against the offensive coaching trend.

I get your point on Bieniemy but nit-picking every candidate you can always some reason why they shouldn't get a given job, the problem is it always seems it is done for black candidates. It is why people wanting to discuss coach by coach doesn't make sense when speaking about the problem, it is only when you take a high level view you see how much things add up and the clear bias at play in the hiring process.

Jolly Red Giant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118582729#Comment_118582729

Bieniemy has been listed as a potential HC and has been intrviewed by several teams over the past 2-3 years. He is constantly being touted as a candidate who should have a HC job. I would argue that the reason why he hasn't got a job is because teams realise when they interview him that there are 'issues' and that is the reason why he hasn't been given the job - not because he is black. As for the issues that Vrabel and Bieniemy had previously - there really is no comparison in the scale of the issues - or the fact that Vrabel stood up and accepted responsibility whereas Bieniemy never has.

To be clear - I never wanted Vance Joseph as HC of the Broncos - not because I never thought he would be any good - but because of the nature of the allegiations against him (many of them the same as Bieniemy while they coached at Colorado). In the same vein - I hold the view that Watson should never be allowed to set foot on a football field again (and he is not the only player who should be banned) - and if the Broncos were to trade for him I would have nothing to do with the team ever again.

Racism is not the only issue within the NFL - it is rife with misogyny as well.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585777#Comment_118585777

You can argue that as the reason but it is based on absolutely nothing but a guess. We simply do not know each of these situations but when you zoom out the evidence points to benefit of the doubt going to the white coach over the black coach far far too frequently for it not to be at minimum a systematic issue.

I completely understand teams writing him off for a serious allegation that occurred 30 years ago, one that he was arrested for but never charged or convicted, but if they feel so strongly about it then have a zero tolerance in their organisation for those who has allegations against them in their lives, especially when they are regularly more recent, with more evidence, and sometimes even more serious.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118585777#Comment_118585777

Do you want to go through the list of white head coaches with chequered pasts who have been hired?

Most recently Urban Meyer just last season to get you started.

Foxtrol

McDaniel gone to the Dolphins - seemed likely he was on the way out after the 49ers brought in Anthony Lynn over the weekend. Didn't think he had the personality to get buy in from most owners. Would have preferred him to go into a better organisation, hopefully he doesn't get hurt by the pretty likely punishment. After doing an 11 hour interview he'd want to have gotten the job.

Nice two further 3rd round picks for over the next two years for the 49ers after getting three years of them from the two other minority coaches hired last offseason. Ryans likely to be a top target next year we've become a strong pipeline for minority coaches

eagle eye

I'd never have guessed that Mike McDaniel was mixed race.

NedsNotDead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594215#Comment_118594215

But being someone who constantly proclaims how they regularly faces down those who are racist and bigots. I find it surprising that you'd post such a comment. Surely his mixed race is immaterial

Oat23

Happy to see Lovie get another HC gig in the league

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1490772094728036353?t=iiJZHImTDMRk0WVMQg3K9g&s=19

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596764#Comment_118596764

Just so you know I'm now placing you on ignore so I won't be seeing any further comments you make.

NedsNotDead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598046#Comment_118598046

Thanks for letting me know Hun. I guess the truth is a bit hard to deal with

adrian522

MOD Note: @eagle eye When adding someone to the ignore list I'd rather you didn't post about it on the thread.

@NedsNotDead Posts like the above have no place on the forum, its only objective is to antagonize another poster. Last warning.

Realt Dearg Sec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118597027#Comment_118597027

Good for him, he shouldn't have been fired by the Bears after a 10-6 season, we've been dire ever since with the exception of one year. i do wonder if the game may have passed him by in the decade or so since, but he is definitely worth a shot, especially for a team with a lot of rebuilding to do and not much to lose in the meantime.

Oat23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118602178#Comment_118602178

Disagree tbh. Post Superbowl we made the playoffs 1/6 seasons and he repeatedly failed to hire a decent OC. Promoting Tice from OL coach to OC was the last straw for me. We were going nowhere under Lovie because of the offense under him. He was a great player coach and defensive mind, but we were beginning to enter the current era of offense winning championships and we were stuck with a bottom 10 offense because he kept hiring bums. It was time to part ways.

Really annoys me seeing all these people on Twitter the last week or two using Lovie Smith being fired after going 10-6 as an example of how racist the NFL is. It's not the full story.

I think he'll be a stop gap for the Texans similar to what John Fox was for us. Pretty good stop gap.

Realt Dearg Sec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118602267#Comment_118602267

I see no evidence that firing him solved, or even addressed, the offensive issues in any way whatsoever. Hiring offensive bums seems to be part of the teams culture.

Edit: that's not to say you're wrong, and maybe it's just hindsight, but knowing what we do now I find it hard to believe we would have experienced the levels of ineptitude on offense and just in general, that we witnessed under trestman, Fox, and Nagy.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118602267#Comment_118602267

I don't get why it is annoying. How Lovie was treated is in stark contrast with the same organisation keeping Nagy after two 8-8 seasons and the team wasn't looking like it was going in anywhere like the right direction. It has similarities with how Caldwell and Patricia were treated with the Lions.

Nearly every individual situation can be excused away but when you zoom out and look more broadly the numbers show how unfairly black coaches are treated - if everything was equal white coaches would be booted out at a similar rate when they have winning seasons, however black coaches are 3.5 times more likely to get fired.

Oat23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606912#Comment_118606912

Lovie had the job 8 years and the offense was terrible every year because he had no idea how to hire a decent offensive staff. Jerry Angelo was rightly fired after 2011 and Phil Emery came in and retained Lovie. We had a stacked offense in 2012 with Cutler, Forte, Alshon, Marshall, Bennett etc but once again his hire (Mike Tice promotion) was dire. Emery had every right to fire him as Lovie repeatedly showed he could not hire a staff. We also started 7-1 that year and then collapsed to 10-6 which didn't help.

The fact his replacement, Marc Trestman, came in and turned virtually the same offense into a top 10 group in 2013 despite half the team being against him shows how badly they had been underperforming previously.

People on social media saying "The NFL is racist because Lovie Smith was fired after going 10-6" bothers me because it lacks all of the above context. It had nothing to do with race and everything to do with years of underperforming on offense with no end to it in sight. Our subsequent hires did not work out but that is irrelevant to my point.

I'm not saying the NFL isn't racist, because it is. I'm just saying that not every time a black coach is fired is it due to racism.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607076#Comment_118607076

You nor I have absolutely no idea whether race had 'nothing to do with it' or if it played a part. The numbers however point to the likelihood that a white coach would have been less likely to have been fired after a similar season. Subsequent hires matter because of the time the white coaches were given despite worse performance on the field.

You're probably right that there was enough cause in Lovie's case to get rid of him but that doesn't change the fact that the Bears and other teams continuously ignore similar or greater levels cause when it is white men in charge of their teams. As I keep saying, you can argue each situation but the numbers do not lie.