Mandatory vaccination in Ireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453955#Comment_118453955

Only in your mind.

faceman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118451486#Comment_118451486

Once again a human rights expert who doesn’t understand what body integrity means from a human rights context.

“Being able to move freely from place to place; being able to be secure against violent assault, including sexual assault ... having opportunities for sexual satisfaction and for choice in matters of reproduction"

This is taken from the 10 capabilities approach by Martha Nussbaum.

If you want to look at older definitions you can go back to the 40’s…

"No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. In particular, no one shall be subjected without his free consent to medical or scientific experimentation”

None of this applies to life saving, medically approved vaccines.

lee_baby_simms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453958#Comment_118453958

It drives clicks and 30c texts.

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453971#Comment_118453971

I find that it adds comic value to read Risteard81's posts in an Ian Paisley voice.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448033#Comment_118448033

no you won't

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118451800#Comment_118451800

Grand, read the post. What I was looking for is some substantiation of the requirement.

If you don't have any, fine.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453917#Comment_118453917

Yeah, and let's add in contraception, and vaccines for flu, Hep b, TB ....

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454084#Comment_118454084

Yes I will.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454112#Comment_118454112

you'll take the medicine , and say thank you sir.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454125#Comment_118454125

that you don't have

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453949#Comment_118453949

Leaving it is working out really well for the UK.

You can refer to northern Ireland as being Ireland I do....but you can't ignore the fact if falls under different control, so measures that are introduced in the Republic of Ireland won't be introduced in northern Ireland....the executive/Westminster will decide

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454134#Comment_118454134

Leaving the so-called "EU" is the right decision for everyone.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454139#Comment_118454139

You don't need to use the so-called part...it is the the EU.

People in Ireland don't agree (support is 84% in most polls - and higher in younger people)...so it isn't going to happen. The disaster it has been for the UK (Scotland, Wales and England especially) will cement it.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454157#Comment_118454157

If you say so.

I have already shown there is no desire for ireland to leave it though.

The only party pushing for it are the loopers of the Ireland freedom party...led by Hermann Kelly...with his registered address in....Belgium...lol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454157#Comment_118454157

Only in your mind.

That’s mad, Lumen you are right. It does sound funnier in Ian Paisley voice.

Teacher2020

I don't agree with mandatory vaccines as such. I do agree with restrictions for unvaccinated people though. They should be allowed to go to the supermarket, work and medical and that's it. 50 per cent of those in ICU are unvaccinated from 6% of the population. We are being held hostage because of those 6%. Restrict the unvaccinated and let the rest of us get back to living life.

munchkin_utd

Ireland wont have compulsorary, or required, vaccination. Ireland has just 5% of adults unvaccinated, 0% of over 60s . The most vulnerable are protected

In countries like Germany or Austria who are considering manditory vaccination theres over 10% of over 60s unvaccinated, and much higher in certain regions. For Germany, to put the percentage into real numbers, thats a not insignificant 3 million unvaccinated over 60 years of age!

Ireland is in a really good place and when Germany and Austria are seeing lockdown and restrictions next winter caused by the ticking time bomb of beligerant pensioners, Ireland will be fully open.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454231#Comment_118454231

There are 60 unvaccinated people in ICU, many with underlying conditions.

60 people are holding 4.9 million hostage?

Restrictions have to go.

And why should I need to carry and present digital personal health data on demand for the rest of my life just so 306,000 other people can be excluded from society and reduced to second class citizenship? While the Dept of Health miss their annual ICU expansion target by a third?

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454231#Comment_118454231

There are about 200,000 to 300,000 unvaccinated and we've had something like half a million official cases in the past few months so no they are not holding us to ransom. That would be the very rapidly spreading transmissible variant causing all these cases in vaccinated and unvaccinated alike. The ICU cases, vaccinated or not, are almost all Delta.

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454231#Comment_118454231

Disgusting nonsense.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454231#Comment_118454231

The ICU numbers are subject to small numbers issues.

But overall case numbers include very many vaccinated people. Based on that, I do not see that the unvaccinated are the problem: vaccinated people who think they are bulletproof are as much of an issue.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454085#Comment_118454085

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/hcpinfo/guidelines/chapter4.pdf

MMR, Varicella and Hepatitis B immunity is required. Either demonstrated antibodies or vaccination.

Diphtheria is mandatory for lab workers.

All others are only recommended to varying degrees.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454354#Comment_118454354

Ok you might have issues with the small numbers in Ireland.

Have a look at them somewhere else in that case.

https://twitter.com/sbattrawden/status/1479935392010883080?t=ZuS-OboG6PamEPaIuNbyVw&s=19

Your view about vaccinated people walking around like they are bulletproof, is just that it isn't based on anything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118451653#Comment_118451653

Well exactly. They are mandatory for gardai.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454001#Comment_118454001

And the Irish courts have found bodily integrity to have other meanings also

faceman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454497#Comment_118454497

Such as, relevant to this topic?

Actually who cares. I don’t support mandatory vaccination beyond healthcare workers anyway.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454272#Comment_118454272

Will be much more than 300k moving forward, considering people will drop off with each "booster" and thus be deemed "unvaccinated". I'd say 500k - 1m after a year.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454231#Comment_118454231

Yeah, they should allow vaccinated only into nightclubs etc, then they'd never have to close them down.... oh, wait, nevermind.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454465#Comment_118454465

So the data in the graph (which does not appear in the linked report—which has plenty of easy-to-capture graphs of its own) covers May-Dec 2021 according to the header.

And then whoever made it apparently had a time machine, because the source given at the bottom is ICNARC COVID 19 report 7 January 2021 (a date when nobody was vaccinated, and 4 months before the purported date range covered by the graph).

And the paper she's linked along with the report is an ICNARC report from 24 December 2021.

Not gonna lie, it smells a bit fishy.

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454465#Comment_118454465

Can I suggest the concentration of risk around 60-69 year olds is of interest?

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454405#Comment_118454405

Indeed, it's very specific and very far from (say) mandatory vaccination of low-risk 5-11 year olds just in case an unvaccinated 60 year old gets covid off one.

It says "A risk assessment should be performed to establish if vaccinations are required for employees in a particular work setting." The context seems to be what's required of employers to provide employees with safe working environments. And, as you say, there's only a handful of cases where the guidance says an unqualified "should".

I notice for Prison Officers it says they "should be strongly encouraged to receive hepatitis B vaccination". I suspect someone tried telling them it was mandatory, and spent Christmas eating his dinner through a tube.

Now, its fair to say anti-smoking legislation got a lot of mileage out of the safe workplace idea. But would that apply here? As you say, a very specific requirement of necessity would need to be established.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454643#Comment_118454643

And that concentration represents a risk of 0.04% in 60-69 year olds.

70+ — 0.01%

60-69 — 0.04%

50-59 — 0.01%

40-49 — 0.004%

30-39 — 0.002%

18-29 — 0.0005%

bokale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454231#Comment_118454231

Thats currently what we are doing though?

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454465#Comment_118454465

may to Dec - would you stop ffs.

in may only 26% of the population were vaccinated.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

We had that sh1te here too in ireland - taking a large majority of peoples conditions and lumping them on the 18% unvaccinated by Dec.

I've no the detail on the UK but I'd imagine in early summer they were still going through vulnerable people.

The people who I know in Ireland not choosing to take the vaccine haven't bothered their GP not mind any ICU or Critical Care.

As I've stated - they never tell you the split of those who decline a vaccine or those that unable due to other issues. They lump all numbers on naysayers.

It's so misleading it's lies.

Mandatory vaccines though honestly give me strength

Anyone wanting this is a moron anyway, another spin to “end the pandemic”. We don’t need forced vaccine clinics to end it. We need people to fcuking do what they’re told.

MilkyToast

I'm against vaccine mandates on the basis of long-held principles around informed consent and bodily autonomy. Contrary to many who ostensibly held similar opinions to mine prior to 2020, principles aren't just things I say when it's easy to say them. Indeed, principles that don't hold up under pressure are not principles at all.

I'm also against them on the basis that they don't work and have been shown to strengthen general anti-vaccine sentiment when used, even if they provide an initial, minor boost for the specific vaccine in question.

I would still be against them if covid-19 had the same IFR as ebola. Though I suspect many more people would take the vaccine if it did.

Teacher2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454749#Comment_118454749

Not enough though. Unvaccinated are allowed to go to outdoors hospitality. Many bars and restaurants have substantial outdoor areas now that are very comfortable even in Winter. We should be requiring vaccine certs for hairdressers, beauticians, all retail except food and medical. Restrictions are there because our health system is being clogged up by mainly unvaccinated people.

Marty Bird

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455094#Comment_118455094

No our dog shît health service is the way it is down to cronic mismanagement for decades, you have bought the government excuse hook line and sinker

Teacher2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455116#Comment_118455116

I agree with you that our health service is severely lacking at the best of times. However, we only can work with what we have. What we have is that unvaccinated people are in hospital taking up beds that they shouldn't be and that is why we have restrictions.

bloopy

I can't tell which opinions are genuine and which are extreme for satirical effect anymore.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455182#Comment_118455182

This is part of the reason why we have had lower deaths than other countries. Lockdowns have been used not to protect you and me but to stop the HSE being overwhelmed. As the HSE are so decrepit lockdowns needed to be introduced here at an earlier stage than countries with first world health systems as the HSE could not cope otherwise.

It is not a funding issue either as we finance the HSE at more than the european average. It is a waste and cultural issue.

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455182#Comment_118455182

It is obviously untrue we have restrictions due to unvaccinated people in hospital with COVID, or in fact any particular number in people in hospital with COVID, because:

(a) we had restrictions when there were almost no people in hospital with COVID.

(b) we had no restrictions when there were many people in hospital with other equally (or more) preventable respiratory viruses

I would like to see someone attempt to formulate a law on restrictions based on hospital pressures that was both consistent with how we've managed hospital pressures and infectious diseases since the establishment of the State, and that didn't specifically mention COVID. It would be impossible.

COVID is specifically novel but not unusual, even in the history of modern medicine.

What is unprecedented is the response.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454731#Comment_118454731

I agree with all of that.

As I see it, there is no legal or constitutional barrier to compulsory vaccination but the public health and safety barrier threshold is very high. I don't think that Covid has established that to date which shows how high the barrier is.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455613#Comment_118455613

I would argue that restrictions/lockdowns up until vaccine rollout were needed to save lives, many vulnerable would have died if we had opened up to "hospital capacity" level during that period of time (march 2020 - June 2021), since then, lockdowns are no longer necessary (soon to come treatments will save an extra few %, but not so many that we close off everyone), the mistake made was not opening from August to November and then bringing back some level of restrictions (probably more than we have now as case counts would have started off higher), this was borne out of a desire to only reduce restrictions and never bring them back which it turned out, wasn't possible.

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455744#Comment_118455744

I think we need to be a bit clearer about what we mean by "restrictions".

IMO the only remaining restrictions that are in any way warranted are "mask" wearing in crowded public places, e.g. on public transport. And even then it is not my preferred policy choice, since it would be both less restrictive and more effective to provide those at risk of serious illness with high quality masks.

Restrictions on pubs and nightclubs (distancing, opening hours) are both now and with hindsight completely unwarranted.

Vaccine certs are more a point of principle at this stage. I feel strongly that the unvaccinated are idiots, but new Omicron infections are not going to be using up significant hospital capacity from this point onwards. The current ICU occupancy is largely from Delta infections, and 1,000 cases in hospital (of 14k bed capacity) represents around the same rate of prevalance as in the community.

There is just no good case for coercive vaccination policies, either argued from first principles and bearing in mind our well established tolerance for self-harming behaviours, or in pragmatic terms based on what we know of human behaviour.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118455731#Comment_118455731

I think it goes with out saying that Covid has exceeded that threshold at this moment in time, a once in a generation pandemic tends to do that.

An applicant would be hard pressed to argue that it doesn't.

The argument will be centered around the punitive actions for non vaccinated.

e.g if someone is prevented from a earning a living, etc.

I think there is a dozen odd European countries bringing in mandatory vaccination is some form, we shall see the court cases soon enough.

munchkin_utd

>I think there is a dozen odd European countries bringing in mandatory vaccination is some form, we shall see the court cases soon enough.

it wont be a dozen. So far its really only Germany and Austria and they have specific problems with millions of stone worshiping yoga lovers who believe so much in their immune system, and meditation, that they stubbornly refuse to get vaccinated, and that on top of neo nazis and government sceptic east germans BUT also most also expect to be looked after should their reliance on a healthy sun tan, hate for the government or herbal and alternative medicine somehow not work and they land into hospital

Personally I'd be happy to have vaccines perfectly optional but maybe have the 13million odd shamans and neo nazis and former commies in Germany sign a release form that they are grand with field hospitals or no treatment should they get covid in a bad way and let the rest of us get on with life. (unfortunately it seems they cannot be excluded from treatment by the medical system so the only way to save the medical system from them is to make vaccines compulsorary)

live4tkd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454231#Comment_118454231

No, No, absolutely f**king No! No mandatory vaccinations ever with Covid! How many vaccinated in the country now, we went through the longest restrictions in the world yet the highest case numbers in the world now! Absolute bollox now and I am saying that as someone that's triple vaxxed!

We are only being held hostage by an overly conservative NPHET (who should should have been put in their box by our spineless Taoiseach), useless government, politicians and noisy hysterics in social and MSM who are terrified! They all should be ran out of it and anybody supporting this insane bullsh*t should be under permanent lockdowns / restrictions and let the rest of us get back to normal to f*ck!

Ireland = The worlds most hysterical hypochondriacs and what did we get for it the highest rates of Covid! Enough is Enough now!!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456894#Comment_118456894

Agreed. I saw a comment on a UK news website yesterday saying the Irish are the most vaccinated country in the World and are still living with an 8pm curfew on night life and restaurants 😊😊

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118456974#Comment_118456974

We are not even the most vaccinated country in Europe, I think that honor goes to Portugal who shut bars over Christmas.

Probably best not to get your information from the Daily Mail comment section.

Cluedo Monopoly

What is it that bothers the vaccinated so much about the unvaccinated?

Obviously virus transmission is a key reason even though Omicron seems to be bypassing that somewhat. Overloading the hospital system is another one. But what makes some vaccinated people so angry about folks that refuse to get vaccinated.

Is one reason that vaccinated people want 'everyone in the same boat' because of the unknown unknowns i.e. possible long term side effects? Does full compliance help validate the minor unknown risk?

Thoughts?