The Closure Of The Women's Safety Thread

In light of the horrendous murder of Ashling Murphy, Beasty started a thread to discuss women's safety.

Contributors gave their opinions and debated with each other fairly ok I thought.

I wonder what the reason was behind closing it? Perhaps there were posts deleted which I didn't see.

The first thread was closed given the amount of speculation and veering away off the topic which was purely to offer condolences. This thread was different so I'm curious.

Beasty

I started the thread as a mod. Three other threads had been closed as they had focussed on the horrendous murder itself. So I started it setting out some ground rules. I know there are debates taking place across the country on women's safety following this awful act. I hoped we could allow similar discussion. I did not want people to lose sight of the murder itself and knew that some posters had not been allowed an opportunity to express their feelings be that of the murder itself, Ashling, her friends and family. or to offer condolences. I did not want to prevent posters from doing that. Equally I did not want people on this site thinking they could do the job of the Guards. I was aware that social media had been responsible for revealing details of the original suspect and did not want speculation over who the murderer is, any motives or other information relevant to the Garda investigation.

I had hoped that by setting out those ground rules we could offer an opportunity to have a discussion of women's safety, and indeed fears. I have listened to commentary on the radio and other media and thought Boards could be part of that discussion.

I thought the thread was going well early on, but then as I mentioned in the closing post the trolls descended. I was aware that around 150 posts had been deleted from the original thread, and quite a few reports started coming in. As the OP and a contributor to the thread I did not want to be actively modding it, although I did end up dealing with some specific posts. I had avoided most of the trouble emanating from the first thread as I was initially AFK and then picking up issues elsewhere. Unfortunately the posts leading up to the closure were going over the same sort of ground that had contributed to the closure of the other threads. I had hoped it would not reach that stage, although the mods that had dealt with the original thread had warned me of the dangers. I simply hoped that those ground rules would allow constructive discussion. As I've already indicated I think there was some very constructive discussion which remains there to be seen. Alas we had some posters who were simply not going to follow those rules. And if they had been banned I think more would have followed.

So yes, it probably was too soon to start such a discussion and hopefully there will be a time in the future when it can be discussed. Having said that I was still taken aback by some of the attitudes shown in the thread and fear we are some way off being able to have a constructive debate,

Xander10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058228228/the-closure-of-the-womens-safety-thread

To be honest, it was a stupid time for Beasty to start such a thread. A lot of high emotions out there at the moment.

A different (later) time and a thread about all women and not with a specific reference would get a calmer more balanced response.

I think it probably was too soon, out of respect for Ashling and her family.

There will be time to debate the hijacking of a crime, the dreadful power of social media, how we can take better care of each other and not live in fear.

As for unpalatable attitudes, well there will always be plenty of them and I don't believe they alone are reason to close discussion, if anything it's a reason to keep talking.

Anyways I was just curious as I didn't notice anything untoward on the thread but I don't know what goes on behind the scenes. It's clear to me now why it was closed.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118482664#Comment_118482664

I do think some of the moderation there was a little heavy handed. I got one of my posts deleted and I was subsequently warned for musing on the comments by government ministers and AGS "that no stone would be left unturned" and "all resources would be made available" - the kind of thing we expect all serious crime to get. Seemingly this was a comment on the on current investigation that fell foul of the ground rules - which I understood to be more about amateur sleuthing, naming suspects and the like, rather than remarking on inane statements for the sake of statements from the authorities. I didn't think the warning was warranted tbh.

I can understand the reasons for not having a thread, due to the sensitivities and indeed the risk of rumours being spread but it's also a shame too. There is a lot to discuss and boards is finding itself left out of the conversation yet again.

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118482990#Comment_118482990

Yes you were definitely p[art of the problem, refusing to pay attention to the rules set out in the OP. It was posters like yourself that resulted in the thread closure

anewme

I think Beasty was 100% right to close the thread. And yes, the thread clearly did show that unlike the media discussions that have been taking place, its way off that this can be debated constructively here. Given that some men labelled women panellists on the Late Late Show thread "closet lesbians" and "bitter lemons who need to be squeezed" (extremely poor choice of language) because they were giving their views, it should show that Boards has a way to go in a debate of this type.

Beasty in good faith, was trying to look at the bigger picture, what can be done to help women feel safe? Not all about being safe from being murdered, but feeling safe and comfortable to go out and about on their own. This is the tone the radio and media discussions are taking, looking at the broader picture.

Clearly though, the discussion triggered some people who do not want to adapt their behaviour or outlook, and do not want to listen to women when they are telling them what will help make women feel safe and comfortable.

It's like asking a person a question "what would help you feel safe?" and you answering and them shouting you down, no, you are wrong, that would not help you feel safe because I don't want to stop doing as its just something "males" do from time to time. It wont result in you being murdered, so its ok. We need to get past this, telling people how they feel, or should feel when we are all individuals. Very valuable discussion.

If people are not going to listen to or deny what is wrong, it's never going to be fixed or addressed. Grass roots stuff that should be and can be discussed openly and respectfully and its a pity it had to be closed. I will say the majority of people were able to debate respectfully and thanks to Beasty for facilitating and contributing.

It is something that should be explored more, and different debates on what can be done re knife crime and other debates not just gender debates, its disappointing that the threads get raided by trolls and Beasty had to close the thread, but totally understandable given it was only going to go downhill and yes, maybe the timing is not right now but can be in the future.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483628#Comment_118483628

Alot of people on the thread including myself disagreed with Ashling's murder being tied to a debate regarding women's safety.

Is that why you are glad to see the thread closed anewme? Because there were opinions being expressed that you didn't like?

There is space for all kinds of viewpoints and discussions. If you would like to have one that focuses on our safety and change then go ahead. If you use the senseless murder of Ashling to do so then be prepared for opposing views to your own.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483596#Comment_118483596

With all due respect beasty, that's absolute nonsense. In case you've forgotten, these were the ground rules you set out at the start of the thread:

"This thread is not to discuss the perpetrator. One person has already been incorrectly identified on social media as being behind this. Leave the investigation to the Gardai. Don't speculate over motives or suspects."

Did I discuss the perpetrator? Nope. Did I attempt to investigate the crime? Nope. Did I speculate over motives or suspects? Nope. What I did comment on were political figures and AGS inane statements on what will happen next. Hardly warning worthy tbh.

On a broader point, and while I can appreciate the difficulty in managing threads on topics like this, if we can't manage to discuss the only thing that's being discussed across the Irish internet and Irish media here for the last few days, the site really is on the express lane to irrelevance.

sonic85

A certain cohort of people don't want a discussion they want any dialogue to go one way and no deviation from that. Certain people want an echo chamber but I'm not quite sure how that's going to add anything constructive to the conversation.

I actually thought that thread that was closed was fairly decent for the most part - I can't understand why mods couldn't just threadban people that were clearly trolling and let everyone else get on with having a discussion.

anewme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483784#Comment_118483784

Not really sure what you have difficulty understanding here, and in the morning Diamonds of Frost.

If you disagree with the thread overall, that's for you to take up with OP. I understand where Beasty was coming from.

Just so we are clear, the question asked was how can we make women feel safer. I answered that question. It is not for someone else to give their "viewpoint" on my feelings.

If I tell you I don't want you shouting at me in the street, then that's it. You don't shout at me in the street or invade my personal space. You or anyone else don't get to have a viewpoint on that. There's no opinion needed. End of.

It is clear from Beasty's post that he took the starting point to be a given that personal boundaries are respected, so the question was WHAT can be done, rather than SHOULD ANYTHING be done.

We are long past the stage where harrassing people on the street or invading their personal bounderies is just something "males" do. The majority dont, but the ones that do, need to seek some help for themselves.

There is no debate or discussion required on the SHOULD ANYTHING be done to help women feel safe, it goes without saying that it should, some people believed the WHAT CAN be done discussion could take place here. Clearly not ready, unfortunately.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118484083#Comment_118484083

My issue is with using Ashling's murder to spark a discussion about our safety and to look at how men need to do better. When both are connected then you are going to have people disagreeing with that connection.

May Ashling and all of those who have lost their lives at the hands of others rest in peace. As a society let us do better.

It's hard to articulate why I hate these type of threads so much, but I really do. For me, Boards is largely a site for discussion and so on, but it boils doing to being a form of entertainment. Information, discussion - sure, but it's about entertainment. And it just feels wrong to me to use such tragic incidents as a way to while away a bit of time posting about it on an entertainment site. People will say "we should be allowed to discuss these things", and sure you can - have a chat about it with your mates. But I just don't get peoples need to want to put it all online for posterity where anyone connected to any of the incidents can come along and read how pages and pages of people entertained themselves over the source of someone else's grief.

sonic85

I don't see anything "entertaining" about any of the discussion surrounding this murder or the suggestions coming from some people about what needs to happen now. If you've read any of the threads about these topics I don't think you'd find much in the way of entertainment. The tone has been somber if anything and most people just want to discuss the issues raised by this crime and do so in as respectful manner as possible.

Why some people just want to shut down any and all discussion is beyond me really. Just makes no sense

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483791#Comment_118483791

You were very much discussing the Garda investigation

You state in your first post above:

"I do think some of the moderation there was a little heavy handed."

So let me add further narrative from the OP:

"but this thread will be heavily moderated if required."

Of course if you have an issue with the warning you should discuss it with the mod, not come over here to make your case.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118482833#Comment_118482833

I'm a woman with 2 daughters in their twenties and I was following the thread with interest so I'm disappointed to see it closed so quickly. Unlike other threads over the last few days I hadn't seen anything untoward but maybe I missed them. I agree with open discussion and open debate , surely there has to be somewhere to have this (Twitter is a mess but seems to be the only alternative). Such a pity to see debate closed down but maybe it was indeed too soon.

I am so uncomfortable with the mainstream media coverage of Ashling's murder, its way over the top and I can't imagine her family want any of this! The extent to which people have highjacked this tragedy to further their agenda and particularly the demonization of men in all of this is deeply disturbing.

On one hand we talk about mental health, in particular the mental health of young men, then we tar them all as would be rapists and murderers, this surely is not the way to go. It would be good to have a thread opened sometime in the future but I wouldn't like to be the Mod on such emotive issues.

Tragic circumstances shouldn’t be used to further any politics, which is what this thread set out to do from the get go. Making this a debate about women’s safety is politicising the murder in an extreme way. The George Floyd thread contained similar political arguments but it wasn’t framed entirely in that manner which allows for more healthy debate.

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118486380#Comment_118486380

You think that discussing how we can allow women to go around without fear is politics?

I am staggered at the number of people who fail to grasp this as a real issue. And that attitude is why the thread was closed

HalfAndHalf

My issue with the closure of the thread was it was the first thread where my genuine concerns were actually mirrored by a fair few others where this poor girls murder has been immediately used to label ‘all men’ and if you’re the Taoiseach then ‘all boys’ as well needing to have “the basic principle of value and respect” for women.

The Late Late had women on allowing commentator’s to state that ‘all men’ don’t understand walking home with keys in hand, and crossing the road etc.

I saw a story there and airliner about some DJ I’ve never heard of today coming out and saying ‘men should have to pass an exam before being allowed out socially’ like a driving test!

I mean FFS it’s gotten beyond a joke in a really short time and causes distress for men that are just normal nice guys.

It also dangerously detracts from the future outcome of this case, as I said in that thread; it could be someone with mental health issues, a jilted lover, someone with an infatuation, this isn’t ‘all men’. What role do the Guards have to play in all of this, and the Government in increasing the number of Guards on patrol to act as a deterrent, again the Taoiseach’s comments were poor at best if it turns out to be something along those lines.

It’s a shame that it was closed without warning and the users derailing the thread not just thread banned to allow the debate to mature.

Deleting posts without giving reason and then closing the thread quite clearly causes valid users who are here for debate to question what’s going on.

To borrow the word of a poster who I respect; there is a hierarchy of crime and awfulness. Some murders matter more than others. In today's society a woman's murder is more devastating than a man's.

For me they are all shocking and all worth talking about.

Or you could have a tiny bit of empathy for families and just not post about it. If you were to lose a family member under similar tragic public circumstances, would you find it useful to know there was a thread hanging around about it online where "JohnnyBigBalls77" logged on at 3.27 am to post that it "probably wasn't their fault that they died." Have a heart. Ireland and Boards is such a small world.

Maybe the only discussion that's needed is to realise that we have a shared humanity and we try our best to be somewhat decent to each other. Gender doesn't have to come in to it. We are just a bunch of humans.

Good night.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118486783#Comment_118486783

Nonsense accusation about me not grasping women’s safety as a real issue. Just deflection. Everyone’s safety is an issue that’s why this tragedy has blown up as a national story.

It strikes me as odd that you would be quick to close such a thread that was started after a muslim attacked someone and rightfully so, but you absolutely fail to see the politicization here. The exact same thing happened in the gender identity thread. The mods attempt to frame the discussion in very narrow terms and label dissenters as trolls. It’s not healthy. I didn’t read all the thread but maybe when you start to call large groups of people trolls then maybe you need to reevaluate your position.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118486783#Comment_118486783

That's actually a really interesting post. Are you actually saying now that the thread was closed because you didn't like how some posters thought that this tragedy was being politicised, rather than it being "infested by trolls" as you say in your closing post?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118487569#Comment_118487569

Sure that's Boards all over when it comes to picking and choosing topics for discussion. Incredible hypocrisy. How can we protect ourselves from the Muslim community? How can we protect ourselves from the Travelling community? Closed and rightly so because of the assumptions and often underlying prejudices.

But it's ok to discuss how we can protect ourselves against men. In fact if you don't then the thread will be closed.

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118493625#Comment_118493625

No

Since boards allowed the vilification of men for the past week will they now allow the vilification of foreigners or Slovakians?

Would a thread entitled, ‘ should slovakians need a license to socialise while in Ireland’? be permitted?

To be clear I think both are wrong and are examples of sexism and racism, but maybe there is a difference I’m not seeing.

One eyed Jack

@Beasty

So yes, it probably was too soon to start such a discussion and hopefully there will be a time in the future when it can be discussed. Having said that I was still taken aback by some of the attitudes shown in the thread and fear we are some way off being able to have a constructive debate,

There is never going to be a right time to have a discussion about women’s safety, let alone the idea that it was too soon to have that discussion off the back of a tragic case that dominated national news.

Even knowing how numerous threads on Boards have gone previously with regards to any time the topic has been broached, I thought too that there was no way a thread started by you would go the same way - basically they all turn into a whataboutery about men, by way of shutting down any discussion about women’s safety or what causes women to feel unsafe, or why women feel unsafe.

It’s definitely possible to have a discussion about women’s safety because I remember one thread in AH where there were a number of women sharing their experiences around the time of the metoo movement, and there was none of the #mentoo stuff, or anyone bringing up their objections to the wall to wall media coverage it was getting, or the idea that men are the real victims or making false equivalences and statistics or anything else.

That’s all there was though - a single thread, on the whole of Boards. I can even remember a thread started in the Ladies Lounge that there were concerted efforts to turn it into a thread about men being the real victims, only for the Mods quickly cut that out before the thread headed in that direction. The problem was it kept heading in that direction, in spite of the Mods best efforts, to the point where a discussion on womens safety, even from the point of view of women, just wasn’t possible.

It’s totally unreasonable and unfair to expect that you could have managed an inevitable train wreck that was just going to happen, but I was surprised by the ferocity of it and the concerted efforts to make sure a discussion about womens safety, focused solely on womens safety, didn’t happen, and wasn’t going to be let happen, not on Boards anyway.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118486783#Comment_118486783

You think its a real issue.

You started that thread.

You moderated that thread.

You closed that thread.

Is this site just your view of things now?

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118513888#Comment_118513888

Bit of a strange comment in connection with a single thread in a single forum that I moderate

If you were to say that I'm dealing with a lot of reports across 2 of the busiest forums on the site as well as being the only Admin who is seen in many threads in Help Desk and Feedback it would make some sense. I would though love it it we had more mods and Admins active across the site to share the burden. I would love it if I could find a bit more time to contribute to discussions. Alas at present there's only really Niamh and me dealing with many of the issues across the site.

Would you prefer it if I took a back seat and we had virtually no Admin input and one mod dealing with everything across those two forums and others?

@One eyed Jack

@One eyed Jack

For some reason I can't quote.

The issue is not about having a debate regarding women's safety, it is using the murder of Ashling Murphy to spark comment that men must do better. The issue is the hijacking of a family's grief and pain to further an agenda that men should be taught how to behave better, and us women need to be careful. The issue is that the focus has been taken away from Ashling and her family and moved to other peoples experiences and causes

People up and down the country are abused in different ways Jack and no amount of discussion will change that. Instead each of us can make small changes within our own lives. Teach our children to respect each other and nurture empathy within them. That is key. Call out others behaviour and keep an eye on our own.

Go ahead and discuss and debate but let us extend that respect and empathy to Ashling and her distraught family. Don't piggyback on their hurt.