Old house bought - want to get it up to A rating

Sniipe

Hello fellow Boardies,

We've been quoted for a Heat Pump technical assessment its €492 which is steep, but if its required then so be it. I also think we need an Air tightness and thermal imaging survey which costs €676 extra.

We are thinking of having good air tightness, good ventilation and an air to water heat pump.

The detached house was built in 1970's and is currently E rated with a suspended floor.

Does this make sense?

Biker1

I wish I could get that sort of money for a technical assessment. You do not need an airtightness test or thermal imaging survey as the technical assessment will outline all that needs to be done to bring it up to a standard suitable for a heat pump.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058229147/old-house-bought-want-to-get-it-up-to-a-rating

If it is worth asking why do you want a BER A. Is it for lower bills, comfort or property value? Your response would influence what would be best

Dudda

If you really intend to get an 1970's BER E rated house up to A or a very high B then it's going to be a major refurbishment. It will be new windows, new floors, insulated attic, insulated walls (either internal or preferably external) heating upgrade and lots of other work. You'll probably end up replumbing and rewiring a lot of the house and if taking up floors redoing the kitchen, utility and any downstairs toilets.

The point is that this is a massive refurbishment where you're spending thousands. Doing an airtight test or thermal imaging test is a waste of time. If I had an €600 to spend or even €200 I'd get a builder in for a day to remove 2-3 floor boards in 2-3 different areas of the house, measure everything, take photos, see how damp or dry it is, etc. Behind some wardorbe or other movable press I'd get a block removed or break out a hole in the existing external wall to look into the cavity, check for DPC, check for insulation, check depth of cavity and how clean it is, etc. I'd also get a hole dug outside to see the dept of the foundation, type of soil (this would be useful if having external insulation and having it go below ground level which I'd suggest). These are referred to opening up or inspection works prior to detailed design.

If this was done a day or two before the Heat Pump technical assessment was carried out then that technical assessment would be a lot more accurate rather than just presuming things. It's also going to allow your architect or engineer to do far more accurate drawings which builders will price. This will reduce 'unknowns' and claims later on site. You don't have to but I think it would be beneficial.

Sniipe

Thanks for all the comments. I was delighted to see them.

We are doing major renovation works. The reason I want a high rating is because I want to reduce my heating bills and have a warm house. We will be striping all the internal walls (to the stud) and floors out. Will I be missing out on anything if I don't do a "before" assessment? I'm thinking of gutting it now and then getting contractors in to do the various works.

If I choose not to go with Air to water straight away will I regret it later on? As in, I might not be able to avail of a grant later on (because perhaps my BER rating has gone up because of other works that I did (air tightness, insulation, triple glazed, etc...)

Our uncle is a builder but doesn't know anything about SEAI or grants.

maestroamado

The first thing you need to do with a bungalow is dry-line all exterior walls... in a bungalow generally the centre chimney wall and the hall wall are likely load bearing the roof.... get anyone with even a little experience before you start spending on reports which cost money...

MicktheMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528029#Comment_118528029

"The first thing you need to do with a bungalow is dry-line all exterior walls"

is very poor advice to the OP .... it is this type of "advice" that can lead to poor or less than optimal outcomes.

For this reason, people in the OP's situation should be getting unbiased independent advice before rather than after when it's too late.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528279#Comment_118528279

So he gets unbiased opinion and pays to do what i am saying... This is an area i know about... if you want to discuss i am here and can answer whatever you want to ask..., then the OP can decide where to spend on advise or on getting job done...

BryanF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528339#Comment_118528339

What’s the wall build-up? is it a bungalow? Is there a dpc? Do the windows need to be changed?

‘this is an area I know about’, I’m finding this hard to believe.

OP, I’d take dudda’s and micks advice

re heat pump, it’s best to take a fabric first approach, by all means plan/design of a heat pump, but sort the envelope first.

maestroamado

The standard bungalow of this era double cavity wall with no insulation... single glaze windows... no attic insulation... assuming it in original state i be buying material/labojur instead of wasting money and advise... double pvc windows... ceiling insulation... dry lining... i think from OP void under floor as was common at that time... different options but depends on whats there...

The result of all that will decide the heat requirement...

BryanF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528597#Comment_118528597

So you’re proposing to dryline a wall that has a cavity, would it not be better to pump the cavity first?

What about the suspended floor would you not see this as an area that should be sealed/made air-tight and insulated?

you talk about wasting money on assessments, but at the same are speculating on the existing materials of construction - do you acknowledge this is problematic and that an independent site inspection/ tailored solution would best before proceeding?

MicktheMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528339#Comment_118528339

So if the OP gets good independent advice he/she will likely not be doing as you suggest.

With respect, I doubt you "know" this area nearly as well as you think you do.

Where's your advice on air tightness?

Where's your advice on indoor air quality and ventilation?

Where's your advice on building physics taking into account moisture movement, interstitial condensation risk, thermal bridging, thermal mass, etc?

Where's your advice on heating generation / distribution / control

If I was the OP I certainly would not be taking any of the above advice from someone on the internet who claims "This is an area i know about" in the absence of an onsite inspection.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534763#Comment_118534763

I suppose it is really up to the individual... i personally have a liking for dry-lining, i think id the dry-lining well done it will keep the heat in... i have no first hand experience of pump insulation so don't know... The original cavity was principally for dampness...

The floor depends on whats there... is there a void under with little walls as was common at a time... For me what needs doing is pretty basic as have done a few projects over the years... i am actually going to dry-line a place in the next few months...

Of course if you feel better with inspection do it... my comments are just what i would do... each person does what suite themselves...

MicktheMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528597#Comment_118528597

What a poor specification for anybody ambitious to do a decent job in 2022. I would think (hope) that the OP have higher ambitions especially if they are contemplating a hp heat source.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536880#Comment_118536880

Out of interest how much does your advise for assessment like above cost... i have done enough projects to know what needs doing... i do agree that a person needs to be there... i am not giving advise... just saying what i would do...

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536914#Comment_118536914

It might be a good option to completely re-build so you could be absolutely right on that one..

Atlantic Dawn

You would have to spend so much money that you would be dead 30 years plus before it would break even. Better to go for something more realistic like a low to mid B rating or else level it to the ground and start again as a better overall solution.

Car99

Is an A rated house in ireland that requires a ventilation system really worth the extra financial burden in our climate?

MicktheMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536919#Comment_118536919

Forgive me if this is not the case, but you appear obsessed with and opposed to normal people seeking independent professional advice in the generally unregulated construction industry where there is so much (mis)information as to melt your head and yet you say you are experienced in the construction industry. Hmmm

The fee for my professional advice and all that entails would be on par with the industry standard for building surveying. I trade on my reputation and have done for over two decades, do not advertise and am always busy. I have yet to be told that I do not provide value for money (the opposite in fact).

MicktheMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118537130#Comment_118537130

It's actually because of our climate (temperate) that requires a decent ventilation system. If we had more of a central / eastern European type climate where it gets very cold in the winter, ironically it would be much easier and therefore simpler to achieve good ventilation.

Toyotafanboi

Have done similar with a late 60's bungalow around 4 years ago. I made a detailed post at the time. You don't really needa technical assessment to know that your 70's house is a sieve. Just get an arch tech or BER assessor on board and follow their advice, it'll still be a few bob but better spent.

Our house was all but derelict and needed to be gutted and re-wired, re-plumbed and needed a new heating system anyway, which was the only way it would ever be economically viable anyway.

The house was cavity block (not cavity wall) construction, suspended timber floors.

We got a BER cert of F or G with the house when purchased and to try and make a long story fairly short we finished with a B1. You have to get a pre and post BER rating to avail of grants available.

To get to B1 we had to get new double glazed windows and doors, we chose to keep the suspended timber floors and use 150mm earthwool between the joists then seal and airtight layer above, 300mm counter rolled earthwool in the loft, 100mm external insulation with some areas internally insulated too, which is working out good despite some concerns. We run an air to water heat pump through alloy rads and find it's very effective.

ESB bills aren't crazy by any means, house is warm 24/7 and hot water all year round. Can't really remember but we got around €10k back in grants. A lot of the work was done mates rates so couldn't give a good retail idea of cost but i know the air to water system was a little under 10k to purchase and the external insulation on a 3 bed 125sq/m bunglaow was around 18k and that's before any other upgrade work, so the grant is nice but not amazing.

vinnie_cork

You need to research SEAI grant called BEC. Don’t get assessed without looking at that. I got €35k from it last year. I up spec’d windows & paid the difference from white casement to cream sash (purely for aesthetics - casement would be more efficient)

I got my 1930s G rated to A2.

external insulation

floor insulation

attic insulation

treble glazed windows

2.8kw Pv

Heat pump

mechanical ventilation

Underfloor heating

& (some other major non energy works incl side & rear extensions)

i work out my total energy bill will be circa €1200 mark for the year. Ground floor at 23 degs & 1st at 21.

the house needed a complete overhaul so this made sence. I spent more on it fixing than buying it the yr before. It’s my forever home & and id tried to not spend more on it than I’d expect it to be valued at finish. Thankfully I got the sums right.

keno-daytrader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568141#Comment_118568141

Thats impressive, just curious, did you get an airtightness test after works were complete?

vinnie_cork

Didn’t bother/ wasn’t required for the BEC grant.

Though if I were doing it again in morning I’d probably listen to the builder re going casement windows over sash. I’d reckon if there’s any potential draft it will come via those. I got extra seals fitted to them but no denying it casement or likes would be better.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118537130#Comment_118537130

Often retrofitting to A isn't going to typically pay for itself if that is what you are asking, but a good mechanical heat recovery system is a wonderful for quality of life. So insulation is overrated, but airtightness is underrated!

jed68

Am wondering if it is difficult to make a 2003 bungalow airtight? I have the cavity walls insulated and attic insulation in but can still feel draughts. I feel it would make a huge difference to the retention of heat in the house. It has a hip roof. Thanks in advance for any responses.

MicktheMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118618955#Comment_118618955

It depends very much on how the walls etc were originally built and finished and also whether it is a standard bungalow or a dormer.

You're on the right track though. Any effort to seriously tackle the issue will be rewarded in spades.

Sniipe

Hello all, thanks for the comments. Lovely A2 house @vinnie_cork. Well wear.

Our update is that we are heavily relying on the builder for his advice.

Upstairs

The builder and his friend put a "membrane" on the ceiling of the first floor.

Its glued to the newly plastered walls. The walls themselves are cavity. They will be pumped and they will get internal insulation of 110mm followed by plasterboard and a skim.

I'll be interested to see how the following are done for the ceiling:

An insulated Stira, ports for the vents for mechanical ventilation and electrical fittings. I would like to maintain an element of air tightness.

We got rid of a sewage vent and the chimney.

Triple glazed windows are on order (they are taking an age to come).

As for the walls, I'm not sure how electrical points can be put in and maintain insulation factor. @Yellow_Fern said: "insulation is overrated, but airtightness is underrated!" - if that is the case then perhaps I don't need to worry about the 9 or so double sockets on the exterior wall.

Also 200mm x 200mm in cris cross pattern of attic floor insulation.

Downstairs

The major difference downstairs is that we have the suspended floors which will have to come out

In addition to that we will have to re-roof two areas where there is a flat roof. We plan to add a little pitch in one direction to each of them.

As per the upstairs, they will have triple glazed aluclad windows, 110mm internal insulation and then the floor will include 150mm (100mm x 50mm in cris cross pattern) internal insulation (Kingspan TF70) with underfloor heating followed by polished concrete.

Other

My brother is the plumber and is helping with the heat pump insulation as well as the ventilation.

Because neither the builder nor my brother are SEAI approved we will not be getting any grants. We might get a grant for the wall pump and attic insulation but that is about it unfortunately. like @Toyotafanboi we are relying on a lot of mates rates.

Lots to do. Hopefully the costs don't creep up any further.

@Dudda we costed external insulation however it was quoted as 50k and we thought that was too much.

farmerval

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118618955#Comment_118618955

First thing is have you an open fire? If you have the draught going up the chimney will cause draughts in the house as the air going up the chimney will draw air from somewhere. When we installed a stove in the fireplace it made a big difference to drafts in the sitting room.

Also have you pumped insulation in the cavity's or just the insulation installed say 60mm rigid insulation in a 100mm cavity. Our 1999 house has significant draughts in the cavity. We have a sliding door that uses the cavity as the pocket into a sunroom, when we moved in first there were huge draughts around it, we had to do a serious amount of work to seal around the pocket for the door.

We hope to get the cavities pumped this year, we have rigid insulation in the cavity but pump the rest, hopefully that will help with the draughts.

Xidu

Buy an old house and then spent a lot of money to upgrade it, vs buy a new house.

which one is actually saving more money?

Sniipe

Its going to cost me more to do up the house unfortunately (much more than it was 6 months ago). The upside is; I get a house to my style in a location that I want.