The media and male violence

anewme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525697#Comment_118525697

Are you saying Vicky Phelan and others are lying, because that seems to be what you are implying.

Vicky Whelan's character is beyond reproach and it shows how low some people will go to try to discredit people.

cms88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525822#Comment_118525822

It's not that puzzling really i would have thought. You or me have no idea if what she siad there is being exaggerated. My point is no one will question her either way. BTW she was also quoted as saying he carried keys with her while out.

Many female NGO's have been using this whole thing to suit them and push an agenda. They're also not being questioned not will anyone question them.

Mwengwe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526402#Comment_118526402

"BTW she was also quoted as saying he carried keys with her while out."

And? You've never heard of someone doing this?

Sweet jesus, do you just not know any women? Because that would explain a lot.

Feisar

Do people not know that carrying something with the intention of using it as a weapon is illegal? Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six and all that shtick but I wouldn't go around admitting it.

Leg End Reject

It's preposterous to claim that every woman who reports an incident is lying.

Everyone with half a brain knows it happens. Some men behave like that, however all men don't and it's unreasonable to suggest that all boys and men need to be educated.

It's also incredibly naive to believe that education will change or eradicate this behaviour, especially at the more violent end of the scale.

zv2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525593#Comment_118525593

Personally I have come to the conclusion that general violence in society is a separate issue from gender violence. I think this big gender argument is something men and women have to go through. It is like a domestic argument writ large and like a domestic argument it can clear the air and we will both know better where we stand after it and, hopefully, learn to be better men and women. But we have to go through the fire first.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526623#Comment_118526623

It's preposterous to claim that every woman who reports an incident is lying.

Who claimed that? I thought the claim was that we shouldn't automatically accept a woman's claims as being true... the #Ibelieveher tag being a good example of past attempts to justify the stance that women's claims should be believed without evidence being presented.

Everyone with half a brain knows it happens. Some men behave like that, however all men don't and it's unreasonable to suggest that all boys and men need to be educated.

I'd say that everyone in society, male and female, should be educated equally to present the best opportunities for a safe society... We (as in most people) already are educated somewhat along those lines, but a better system could be designed/implemented with unbiased research to support it.

It's also incredibly naive to believe that education will change or eradicate this behaviour, especially at the more violent end of the scale.

Education encourages conditioning to become established, and conditioning has been used in society for centuries to have most people conform to social norms. Whether it's the Catholic Church, government institutions, or extremist organisations abroad, conditioning has been proven remarkably effective at instilling beliefs in how people should live their lives, but also the perspectives that people have about others.

My claim was that education would decrease this behavior, not that it would eradicate it.. and the more violent end of the scale are typically those who would break any or all rules/norms, because they don't care regardless. However, violence is also performed by people who are normally, well, normal.. and education that is suitable for dealing with emotions, and personal control, would likely provide those people with a greater chance to control themselves, therefore reducing violence in society.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526633#Comment_118526633

I agree, in part.... however, everything is connected, because people have their biases, and agendas to support/promote.

Gender is important because of the state of society in regards to women's rights/feminism and the emergence of male rights groups, which have traditionally been fragmented, and are starting to come together due to the changes in society (that have sought to elevate women above men rather than seeking equality). The use of violence as a rallying cry is part of that gender conflict, and that gender conflict comes from the social sciences that have come from the US. Feminism is strongly rooted in marxism, and marxism tends to support the idea of change through conflict. It stands to reason that these kinds of situations would be used to further promote women's rights, and that means men's rights will decline as a result (because equality is not the objective of feminism).

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526777#Comment_118526777

There was a claim that Vicky Phelan could be lying (not by you). Given her circumstances it's unlikely she'd take the time to lie about a time a man exposed himself to her. Yes, some women will lie and every claim of any wrong doing should stand up to scrutiny regardless of the gender of either the victim or perpetrator.

I wasn't contradicting your post about education, just the general media theme of all men needing education when many of our values and behaviours originate in the home.

With regards to church or governmental controls, they often provide a veneer of respectability where those under their control are afraid to speak out. The Catholic Church here has a sordid history of abuse towards men, women, boys and girls despite their puritanical teachings.

Mwengwe

There was a claim that Vicky Phelan could be lying

About something completely innocuous too.

In fact the poster originally stated that Phelan was trying to 'outdo' others with her tales, which she clearly wasn't as you can see from the tweet above. Not that anyone ever walks anything back on here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526850#Comment_118526850

There was a claim that Vicky Phelan could be lying (not by you). Given her circumstances it's unlikely she'd take the time to lie about a time a man exposed himself to her. Yes, some women will lie and every claim of any wrong doing should stand up to scrutiny regardless of the gender of either the victim or perpetrator.

Yes, the claim was about Vicky Phelan... not all women. But, yes, I agree with the rest of your post.

With regards to church or governmental controls, they often provide a veneer of respectability where those under their control are afraid to speak out. The Catholic Church here has a sordid history of abuse towards men, women, boys and girls despite their puritanical teachings.

It doesn't matter the negatives of the RCC. My point was about the power of education and conditioning. Many dodgy or outright evil regimes have used conditioning to bring about changes in perspectives, and to alter the behavior of people. Usually this meant targeting people when they were young, instilling a range of beliefs in them, and reinforcing those beliefs as they became older. Germany and Russia both did it to bring out aggression in their indoctrinated recruits, but the opposite is just as possible, by reinforcing belief systems that encourages greater patience, and understanding among people. TBH the possibilities are pretty much endless as to what can be done through education and conditioning... and it would be an effective way to decrease the attention given to violence in society. Not enough on it's own, but as part of an overall process, it definitely has value.

Hoboo

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526961#Comment_118526961

I specifically mentioned Vicky Phelan because of her terminal diagnosis. It strikes me as odd that anyone would waste time making up claims in those circumstances. My post was simply acknowledging that some claims will be false or grossly exaggerated, but some will be true.

With regards to conditioning, if an education/conditioning regime was established to target one gender only it would be unlikely to have positive outcomes for the gender deemed to require it.

I haven't experienced the seemingly ongoing and relentless behaviour that other women reference, I'm not afraid to go out and about, and I'm bemused that this has gained so much traction. It would be awful to have girls indoctrinated that men are to be feared, and cruel to teach boys that they are likely to grow into sexual predators.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118522682#Comment_118522682

Sure, I think we're in broad agreement. Acknowleding the reality of irrational impulses and drives, including relating to violence, and finding the right strategies for harnessing and/or counteracting (as much as possible) the harmful aspects.

Mwengwe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527051#Comment_118527051

Yeah, people with a terminal diagnosis should concentrate on dying and not be bothering the rest of us with their views or 'pretending' that they carry keys around

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527110#Comment_118527110

That isn't what I said though, is it?

Maybe read carefully before you post like a harridan.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527051#Comment_118527051

I specifically mentioned Vicky Phelan because of her terminal diagnosis. It strikes me as odd that anyone would waste time making up claims in those circumstances. My post was simply acknowledging that some claims will be false or grossly exaggerated, but some will be true.

TBH I tend to be wary of claims/statements made on social media, because people have a stake in presenting/supporting their biases. That's not to say that she was exaggerating or lying outright. I honestly don't know, which is why I didn't get involved in the discussion earlier. Claims, unless they're backed up with evidence should always be taken with a pinch of salt.

Nope. The reason I commented was due to "It's preposterous to claim that every woman who reports an incident is lying"... I hadn't seen anyone state that..

With regards to conditioning, if an education/conditioning regime was established to target one gender only it would be unlikely to have positive outcomes for the gender deemed to require it.

Completely agree, which is why I've been talking about taking a balanced approach and seeking to understand all factors that contribute, including those that are influenced by women in society.

I haven't experienced the seemingly ongoing and relentless behaviour that other women reference, I'm not afraid to go out and about, and I'm bemused that this has gained so much traction. It would be awful to have girls indoctrinated that men are to be feared, and cruel to teach boys that they are likely to grow into sexual predators.

Again, I agree, but there have been people who have been indoctrinated to believe such.. the media has a stake in presenting reality such a way (the amount of attention they allocated to showing women's issues in society means that they're already seeking to condition society), as do hardline feminists. Fear is a powerful way to influence others, especially when you can point to a vague formless fear that is next to impossible to resolve.

cms88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527110#Comment_118527110

Where did anyone say this? You're just making things up now.

anewme

Another shocking murder today in West London, horrific attack on a woman at 9am in Maida Vale. RIP

john123470

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527206#Comment_118527206

Yep, fortunately there was a man around to neutralize the attacker

john123470

One of the 3 men who tried to stop this attack on the woman this morning is now charged with murder ..

Ye gods

What kind of message does this send out to bystanders who are urged to get involved - to risk life and limb when an assault is taking place ?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527448#Comment_118527448

”Don’t use your vehicle as a people-battering ram”?

"All of a sudden it moved to the street and no sooner than they reached the street than a driver came and hit both of them.

"We were all shocked and shouting and my heart goes out to the families of this fatal incident.

"This is something one sees in movies, not in real life."

Detective Chief Inspector Jim Eastwood, of the Met's Specialist Crime Command, added: "This was a terrible incident that occurred in broad daylight on a busy London street.

"It also appears that a number of members of the public bravely tried to intervene to stop the attack."

The families of the man and woman who died have now been told.

(bold emphasis my own)

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/maida-vale-woman-stabbed-to-death-and-man-killed-by-car-in-in-west-london-street-12524428

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527522#Comment_118527522

It also says the woman was stabbed to death. That part about hitting both of them strikes me as odd. How should men in the vicinity have helped vs a knife attacker?

john123470

From bystander reports, it seemed the knifeman was able to keep the men who were trying to help at bay with the knife

The driver tried to remonstrate with the attacker .. then used his car as a last resort

”Don’t use your vehicle as a people-battering ram”?

Yep, its,easy to call it from behind safety of a keyboard. I am sure the guy has best intentions .. ie to save the woman's life ..

I doubt his intentions were to kill both people

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527527#Comment_118527527

Now I’m not sure if you’re asking me the question, or if it’s a rhetorical question by which the answer would seem obvious.

The way @john123470 presented it, the post read as though a man is being charged with murder for coming to the aid of a woman who was being attacked.

That was clearly not the case. He is not being charged with murder for coming to the aid of a woman who was being attacked.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527584#Comment_118527584

You asked this question -

What kind of message does this send out to bystanders who are urged to get involved - to risk life and limb when an assault is taking place ?

It’s not just an easy call from behind the safety of a keyboard, it’s an easy call from behind the safety of a steering wheel too - don’t do it.

You make like that’s an unreasonable idea, whereas for most people I would imagine it’s quite an easy idea to understand.

john123470

" ..Horror on the school-run: Police arrest driver, 26, for murder after knifeman was run over and killed to stop frenzied attack on woman who died from stab wounds in west London street .."

Ah ok, he's wanted for a previous murder.

Right

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527674#Comment_118527674

No john - you’re reading that wrong. He isn’t wanted for a previous murder, and he hasn’t been charged with anything. He was arrested on suspicion of murder, as part of an ongoing investigation into the incident.

john123470

You're the type that will argue day is night. So, i'll end the back and forth right here.

My point stands - this is not the first time a good Samaritan ends up being charged with assault or - as you prefer it in this case - placed "under suspicion of murder" ..

The message it sends out is ''Don't get involved / Mind your own business"

.. you say " It’s not just an easy call from behind the safety of a keyboard, it’s an easy call from behind the safety of a steering wheel too - don’t do it .."

- hhmm, if that were your arse on the ground being stabbed to death, i'm sure you'd be able to raise a feeble, bloody hand and stop that motorist right in his tracks. Don't do it !!"

Lols

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527794#Comment_118527794

Your point doesn’t stand. It never stood, and you couldn’t have picked a worse example to portray your own narrative of a Good Samaritan being charged with murder for coming to the aid of a woman being attacked.

Look at your own post above and how you attempted to portray it -

One of the 3 men who tried to stop this attack on the woman this morning is now charged with murder ..

I know that doesn’t happen, so I looked up the incident that was being referred to only after I read your post, and guess what? It didn’t happen!

That’s not arguing night is day, that’s telling you straight out you’re talking out your rear end. Problem is, some people actually will believe you.

BTW - I didn’t miss the way you switched the scenario either in suggesting that if I had been the victim, I wouldn’t be telling someone not to run over another person with their car. Does the phrase ‘unlawful killing’ mean anything to you? It’s why I wouldn’t advocate anyone taking the law into their own hands -

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/four-men-took-law-into-their-own-hands-by-attacking-teen-who-had-witnessed-the-unlawful-killing-of-their-friend-41273345.html

That’s why the driver was arrested on suspicion of murder, his arrest wasn’t as a consequence of being a Good Samaritan and trying to come to the aid of a woman who was being attacked. He was arrested on suspicion of murder as part of an investigation into the unlawful killing of two people.

I wouldn’t mind but this is a thread about the media and “male violence” and the shìtty narratives the media portrays of men, and then you come out with that nonsense!