Ireland's defensive frailty exposed by Russian exercise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533549#Comment_118533549

Didn't we also get Obama's "beast" car in a bit of a pickle when he visited also? It got stuck on a particularly difficult ramp in D4 near the US embassy.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534229#Comment_118534229

Will you be still saying that if Irish troops are sent to fight against Russian forces if they decide it's time to head back to Berlin ..

No point hiding behind that skirt

whats the plan of the Russians then?

Rockall.

And then the mother of all strategic locations... Fraggle Rock.

XsApollo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534254#Comment_118534254

I can say whatever you like in your fantasy , it’s yours after all.

No matter how much you fantasise about Attack drones and F22s being purchased by Ireland and us going to war , it’s not gonna happen.

you can say we aren’t neutral but the fact of the matter is written by DFA on their own website.

deluded

Snickers Man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525755#Comment_118525755

Meh. I thought with all those Brazilians that have been working here for years that we would have a few Declaninhos and Eamoninhos coming through into the national side but that hasn't happened yet.

Can't see the Russian contribution to our gene pool doing much better in that regard. :)

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534135#Comment_118534135

Use our legendary spud production capabilities, to create the world's finest vodka and poitin... then use it to fuel their rockets for their space warfare program? They've had a secret admiration for us for many centuries, hence why they put the word "spud" into everything of significance. 😆

But only in a @Gatling style fantasy world.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534280#Comment_118534280

We're buying f22s wow that's some made up shite there 🤣🤣🤣

BluePlanet

Lads the whole Ukraine thing is a ruse.

The real plan, is that Russia is going to INVADE IRELAND. It turns out that Ireland is actually the lynchpin that holds the NATO and the EU and US together, due to our unique geographic proximity and our special ©Neutrality.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534503#Comment_118534503

They don't have to invade they already proved how easy it was to practically shut down hse , they can do a lot worse without ever having to set foot here ,

But yes according to some pro Putin boardsies our neutrality can replell anything including aliens👽👽👽👽..

I'm sure we have plenty of types who would be standing proudly saluting Russians with Hail Vladimir

Snickers Man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526654#Comment_118526654

Well argued case. But taking the logic of your argument (just for the sake of argument) it seems that your special needs child could be employed as Air Force ground crew; you, with your disability, could be safely employed as a pilot--secure in the knowledge that your and your child's every need would be guaranteed by your colleagues on the ground who would act in unison to promote your best interests; and given that somebody has to die so that another relative could harvest their organs for that life-saving transplant, a more bellicose defence policy might actually increase the chances of that happening.

As for the relative waiting on the trolley---well, War is Hell.

OK, so I'm being facetious, but hey. You started it.

boetstark

Well it's going to get real interesting soon.

The Irish fishermen are planning on being in that area of our eez before the Russians arrive.

The Russians it seems are determined to proceed with their live firing manoeuvres. I would imagine if the Irish fishing vessels are bullied out of the area there is an obligation on the Irish navy to offer them protection. That will be interesting seeing as we only have manpower for one vessel.

Laughable really on an international level. Good ol paddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526654#Comment_118526654

Suppose no one ever told you the HSE is very well funded but poorly managed?

that’s the problem with Ireland. We’re not poor we’re disorganised. Like a bunch of kids with severe ADHD and massive wallets running into ourselves and whatnot, throwing money around cos “that’ll sort it” and having nothing done.

fly_agaric

Have always thought Irish "neutrality" and the managed decline/atrophy of the military (think it really took hold after the IRA ceasefire, peace process and the end to violence in NI) analagous to the old abortion policy.

That was, have an ultra strict ban to chest beat & uphold a moral principle but in reality utilise the very liberal on demand regime in the UK (a short boat/plane trip away) as a safety valve so the nasty costs of the policy are not too high and rubbed in too many faces.

Basically a complete failure to grow up, make decisions and take responsibility. That seems to be behind us now, so maybe there's hope the state (& Irish people given it is a democracy and the defence policy seems popular and has been supported by many here) will put on their big boy trousers and make some decisions about defence some day too! Ireland is a conservative place though and new thinking + change drops slowly so might take another 20-30 years yet (if events give us that time and don't force some choices).

Gatling

Look at the complaints about baldonald/casement people buying Houses in saggart and rathcoole and they complaining about the noise and wanting heavy restrictions on flights coming and going and no flights After a certain time in the evening ,

Now imagine if we did manage to actually buy attack helicopters and fast jets ,we would spend the next 20 years dealing with legal wrangling with typical Irish moany holes ,

The same would happen with increases in live fire excercises for increased readiness

gct

Why oh why are We putting up with these bullies smashing in Our back doors? Its embarrassing. Stand up to them! Threaten to join NATO if the live fire exercise goes ahead.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534843#Comment_118534843

I think we should not make a big fuss about it now but instead quietly strategise about the future and what role do we plan to have for ourselves in the world. Is there some cost effective hardware that we can buy? Should we sign a pact with the Brits around common defence? Do we join NATO?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534695#Comment_118534695

I think if we took a giant bazooka to the quango/NGO industry we would save a ton of money that could be spent on far more worthy causes. I just have this sense that there are a lot of people in Dublin making a ton of easy money buzzing around Government like bluebottles making loads of noise but doing sweet FA for the average taxpayer.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534726#Comment_118534726

That's the thing, the neutrality policy has never been debated before. We've had referendums on everything, maybe we should use this opportunity to give the people a list of 3 or 4 of our best options and choose which one we'd prefer. Chances are most people are happy with neutrality but let's talk about it.

Polar101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534843#Comment_118534843

I doubt the Russians would believe if Simon Coveney said "go away or we'll join NATO". I know I wouldn't.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536012#Comment_118536012

Am not a fan of all the referendums we hold, and might prefer to see politicians lead on it or throw out their ideas in the party manifestos next time we have an election, but maybe you are right.

Even if the neutrality (of sorts) stays as is today, I think an honest decision still has to be faced up to & made about do we actually want a Defence dept. and a military at all. Then if "we" decide "yes" (my position) what do we want to do with it?

Commit to fund it properly (including the personnel) for those jobs, not just defund it by neglect (when looked at as a % of economy - GNI or the tax collected rather than the bloated GDP) and leave it to rot because it is a Cindarella no one cares about unless there is something that shines a light on how bad a state it is in/brings some media attention. There's been a few of these events over last year though.

Gatling

@fly_agaric your dead right

Just to show how well we respect our defense forces ,many families are in receipt of WPF payments from social welfare ,and the food they get served they pay more than double to feed prisoners over what the defense forces get ..

So yeah there needs to be a serious discussion , it's either we back the defense forces to the hilt or we completely disband the defense and solely rely on the private sector

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118535931#Comment_118535931

100%

its impressive honestly. I have ADHD and can barley keep my desk drawer organised. They all seem to and they run a country despite it.

madness.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118524980#Comment_118524980

No. Nobody is suggesting that either. As the OP outlines we have been utterly negligent in defending ourselves.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525465#Comment_118525465

And what would happen if every European country took the same approach?

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525621#Comment_118525621

By any measure we are richer than any Eastern European country no matter how big our tab. This Russian move should show us that we can’t hide behind the rest of Europe and let them defend us. We should pull our weight.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536957#Comment_118536957

And this is why there pushing for a European army , we will all have to increase military spending ,we don't need to develop new tech , there are plenty of companies in Europe who can supply off the shelf equipment and rapidly equip those countries Who are lagging in defence like us,...

There's 8 Saab Gripens , several other Nations in Europe fly and maintain them they could rotate sending pilots to train our aircorp and maintaining teams and we can send machanics over seas ,the same could appy to ground or naval assets..

Nato could then become an alliance involving the US , Canada ,Japan , Korea , Australia , Philippines ,

But if nato went away tomorrow , does anyone actually believe putin wouldn't strike through the whole of Europe

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536536#Comment_118536536

That's bad. If "we" are keeping it, they can begin with pay and conditions etc. and making sure they can hang onto the people they have. This is less complex than deciding what exactly their role will be and what new equipment or infrastructure needs to be invested in + capacities built up to do it properly.

No expert on this but I would have thought if they did finally just get rid of it/allow it to decay away completely, the "domestic" things they do would be hived off to other bits of the public sector rather than to the private sector (the Gardaí, Irish Coast Guard, Dept. Agriculture Food and the Marine maybe, Irish Revenue & Customs, cyberdefence/security stuff is afair in Dept. of Environment, Heritage and Local Govt. Climate and Communications as a layman reading reporting on the HSE hack).

edit: Seems very unlikely though, would embarass the govt. in front of their peers in the EU, shame them somewhat at the UN. They would not like that. Possibly the public would be angry (could be off base but I think people get sentimental + have some national pride about the army's UN efforts even if they don't actually want to see any money spent on it!).

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533693#Comment_118533693

A well equipped force of 30k with extra support weighting could hold off 90k using that rule of thumb. 

That would be the most expensive & useless posturing move in the history of man.

It wouldn't be a deterent , because everyone would know we are to cowardly in Ireland to actually engage.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118537623#Comment_118537623

We're an island we should have the ability to hold off a larger Force , especially if we had the right radars , anti aircraft and anti ship systems ,the only way to invade here is either large amphibious assault or airborne assaults helicopters and paratroopers ,but as it Stands any country with naval landing craft could land forces here and secure a beach head , without getting fired upon were on of the richest countries in Europe and we don't have the basic ability to defend ourselves

Mecanudo

Ah sure might as well throw the baby out with the bathwater while we're at it

https://www.thejournal.ie/cathal-brugha-housing-5665518-Jan2022/