Ireland's defensive frailty exposed by Russian exercise

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525418#Comment_118525418

I dont think so Kermit. I think the real 'issue' is money and sense. As in having sense.

A country like Ireland just needs a token force to keep potential marauders and pirates out. And thats what we got.

After that ask yourself the question what are the possible scenarios for an armed conflict?

A country we could actually fend off sizewise is not going to attack us randomly. Like Portugal or Cuba or whatever. If we ever were going to be attacked it would be one of the big guns during what would probably be an all out war. So a) is not going to happen and b) well how big a force would you need to bloody the nose of a big gun? More than we can afford for sure. And what would the point of it be? Anyone who defends themselves too well usually has the sh1t bombed out of their population. Its a no win situation.

It just doesnt make sense. We'd be just lining more defence industry pockets with tax payers money that could go towards constructive things.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525669#Comment_118525669

Yeah and Limerick aren't going to be playing any u8 teams anytime soon anyway.

rock22

All the tension has been caused by NATO reneging on a commitment given to Russia not to encircle it with NATO weapons and countries. Perhaps we should start with asking for the disburdenment of NATO. It's raison d'etre is surely expired.

Well, we do seem to imagine we are still the strategically and economically irrelevance we were in the mid 20th century. A lot has changed, particularly as we’ve become a significant financial hub, IT centre, host some very high tech manufacturing (pharma, very cutting edge biotech/biopharma and on the electronics side notably Intel) and we’re a huge data host for very important regional and even global internet services.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525672#Comment_118525672

That's why people are getting the horn in here about the Russian military exercises. You're more likely to see the Queen of England's tits than see Ireland get invaded by any foreign powers.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525719#Comment_118525719

Bs

You don’t have to invade Ireland to cause chaos, you have to snip about 10 cables and we’re offline and major global operations of mostly US companies are badly disrupted.

That is our vulnerability. Not being actually invaded. That would be fairly pointless.

ebbsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525432#Comment_118525432

Think of the soccer team we would have ?????

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525655#Comment_118525655

The cables are much deeper and better shielded than most of us can imagine. As they get closer to the shoreline, they switch to much thicker shielding to protect against impacts from ships and other such fun.

It's not really a case that a couple of depth charges from a Russian boat could kill them. They're tougher than that. They could of course have specialist equipment and teams, but at that location these cables are 1-4km below the surface. So you're not talking just a couple of lads in wet suits with blowtorches.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525729#Comment_118525729

No one said we’re going to be invaded, but the fact of the matter is we couldn’t stop it— or even see it coming before it was too late.

the long and short of it is at the moment, Russia doesn’t even have to ask for our input on this and all we can do is ask them to stop. Jesus, we’re like fcuking Apu when Homer was eating all his krusty club bars for the golden ticket.

*russia launching missiles in our seas*

hey! Hey! Hey!! I have asked you nicely to stop testing missiles in my waters! You leave me no choice but to ask you nicely again!

https://youtu.be/l7DL_L3Xdac

reckon I’d make a fine meme of this mind.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525621#Comment_118525621

Everyone knows about the feckin GDP issue, that's why we use MGNI and it still makes us one of the richest countries in the World. That MGNI figure is also a very severe measure that undervalues certain activities and so we are being beyond cautious is using it.

We're about as far from broke as its far to get. We have debt to MGNI of 105% at end 2021, which if you used the equivalent measure on all EU members would put us about mid-table, *BUT* our economy is in a far more fundamentally strong position than almost any in the EU.

You'll often hear talk, especially in the Trump years, complaining about NATO members not meeting a 2% GDP defence spending target.

So for the record Ireland's current defence spending is 0.17% of GDP or 0.36% of MGNI.

We can do much better without it taking the shoes off of the kiddies feet or taking the social houses or the hospital treatment out from under people.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525760#Comment_118525760

Russia has submarines who's sole task is to attack Cables even at serious depths, even the American were able to access Russian underwater cables for 3 decades before someone leaked it to the Kremlin.

Undersea cables can be damaged and destroyed

Elmer Blooker

Can we not finish that children’s hospital first before we take on those bad Russians?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525809#Comment_118525809

Let us worry about our childrens hospitals

They’ve been allegedly sniffing around those cables for months. There were reports is mysterious boats in that area last year. We aren’t even able to properly scan or patrol those areas regularly.

The cables are vulnerable until they get into very deep ocean and we don’t know what kind of specialist equipment they have. The Russians have always had very high developed submarine and space tech. It’s hardly beyond their capabilities. You’re talking about a country that has successfully landed probes on the surface of Venus. A few fibres off Bantry, defended by what amounts to a badly resourced coast guard by naval standards, is hardly going to be that big a challenge.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525803#Comment_118525803

I think the point being made is that an effort to destroy them would be noticeable and an immediate halt would be placed on the efforts.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525830#Comment_118525830

Not by us though ,by the Time an attack was detected and another EU State reacted the damage would be done ,

The fact we have significant amount of undersea cables and no way of protecting them is a red flag

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525784#Comment_118525784

You think that Russia or China could park an aircraft carrier 100KM from UK territory and Westminster would just sit and swivel?

Staleturnips

I wonder if people in the rest of Europe are aware of how limped-dick Ireland actually is in terms of its own defence.

There definitely are tribes in the amazon who could defend their patch of ground better than we can ours.

Most of those cables ultimately terminate in the U.K. or France but are used for most of Western Europe, and are multinational, not specifically Irish terminations (other than a small few).

If there is a risk you can expect an intervention by the British and/or French Navy, in their own interests.

Our major weakness is a lack of even being able to see what’s going on. We need to invest in radar, even just to keep our civil aviation safer from military stuff flying with no beacons.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525729#Comment_118525729

In a broader European conflict, Ireland is a juicy prize. Nice little staging post in the back garden of a cornerstone NATO member.

The post WW2 peace Europe has mostly enjoyed is a historical abberation. We don't know what's coming in the next 30,40,50 years.

No one is talking about aircraft carriers or a 50 strong fleet of F35s, but a little bit more attention to defence matters and respect for our defence forces to provide a serious insurance policy for our military neutrality wouldn't go astray.

Defence spending looks like a luxury until we're in a serious crisis and we'll have no option but to go cap in hand to NATO to join the fray.

A major security crisis that threatens our way of life on the continent may not happen tomorrow or in 10, 20 years, but the way things stand, we'll always be unprepared for it and be left with only bad options when the day comes.

Staleturnips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525881#Comment_118525881

What do we offer militarily in the treaty? A catalogue of rebel songs?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525074#Comment_118525074

If there is ever a nuclear war none of this defense spending talk matters any more cause life as we know it is over.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525855#Comment_118525855

Most of the cables in that area connect the UK and US. We specifically have no need of a large military presence to protect them, they serve as critical infrastructure for many, many countries, who all have more than enough military capacity to look after it.

https://www.submarinecablemap.com/

The point still remains, why are the Russians in that particular spot, right as they are assumed to be about to invade Ukraine and as a war of words flies between them and NATO?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525418#Comment_118525418

What are the militaries of equivalent countries like ? It's not something I'm up to date on.

But if we do have money floating around i'de rather we put it towards achieving free A&E or upgrading our shocking transport infrastructure

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525965#Comment_118525965

And Ireland being in NATO will be what keeps Putin's hand off the button ?

If someone actually actually launches their arsenal or all sides do I think it's time we just call it quits as a species.

rn

Can you just imagine how excited Jeffery Donaldson and his crew would be, if Russia or China had an invasion force off the west coast of Ireland! Of course they would definitely stop rolling the T72s when the road markings go from yellow to white... So the UK would only send "Strongly worded letters" and implement sanctions.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525443#Comment_118525443

The answer to this post is this:

Why spend anything on Defence? Just scrap the entire Defence Forces as sure, we are fucked if a big power wants to have their way with us, or there is 0 chance it will ever happen because we can sponge of the UK, EU, US....

So just get rid of the defences forces altogether... its a waste of money.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525881#Comment_118525881

They would to protect their own territories and interests, which we near enough to benefit from.

In fact that's what we've always relied on, right or wrong.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525924#Comment_118525924

The last time Ireland was invaded prior to the end of World War II was 1798 when the French invaded. 220 years without an invasion doesn’t indicate that we have anything to worry about in modern historical terms.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526050#Comment_118526050

The roles of the Permanent Defence Forces are:

To defend the State against armed aggression

To assist the Garda Síochána when requested

To participate in peacekeeping missions in support of the United Nations

To contribute to maritime security, including the delivery of a fishery protection service

To provide ceremonial services on behalf of the Government

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526050#Comment_118526050

Our defence forces do actually do things internally. They serve a vital role as part of the emergency services, and fill niches that other services don't. To a certain extent the fulfill a role as swiss-army knife (no pun intended), providing backup capacity for other emergency services. Our pandemic response - especially vaccinations - would have been a complete shambles without military support.

Just because they're not out scaring off foreign invaders, doesn't mean they don't provide value.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526083#Comment_118526083

That's grand so. Our economic , sovereign interests and our military neutrality are well protected in the case of a European conflict conflagration then.

Apropos of nothing, I've never crashed my car, my insurance is up for renewal - don't think I'll bother this time.

yeah let's spend the money it would require to make an actual difference to any outcome in the event of a Russian decision to invade

*checks bill*

*reaches for russian dictionary, furry cap with hammer and sickle motif and bottle of vodka*

BluePlanet

How much more in taxes are you willing to pay for "Defence spending"?

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526124#Comment_118526124

Well, you've got two options. You can pay €500 a year for 3rd party fire and theft. Or you can pay €3,500 a year for the same insurance except it covers other people driving your car so they don't have to buy their own.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526124#Comment_118526124

Passive aggressive rants? This is your idea of debate? Stick to Pokemon cards, mate, the grown ups are talking.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526177#Comment_118526177

?

Do one.

You don't like my replies, respond to the substance of them. Mate.

Boulevardier

An important consideration is that the US already has a de-facto Air base at Shannon, so we can hardly blame the Russians if they consider us as part of the "Western" bloc.

Why not lets ban all foreign military use of our airports and then extend that to our airspace?

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525431#Comment_118525431

It would be far cheaper to go on Ebay and invest in a few million white flags.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526087#Comment_118526087

I think you are overplaying the hand here, but couldn't the money be redirected to another organisation, say civil defence to do what the army do in Ireland?

What is the primary role of the Irish Defence Forces?

From their Website:

"To defend the State against armed aggression; this being a contingency, preparations for its implementation will depend on an ongoing Government assessment of the security and defence environment."

So if they cannot do that, and we are unwilling to fund them to do that, just scrap it and stop living a lie...

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526193#Comment_118526193

Your posts are totally insubstantial. Absolute rubbish about car insurance and long-winded pseudo-intellectual nonsense about peace since World War II being an aberration. Ireland didn’t even fight in World War II.

BluePlanet

The fact that NATO have their knickers in a twist right now over Ukraine is proof positive that the Russians are 100% correct, Nato already had planned on Ukraine joining that alliance. Exactly like they had with Georgia.

The only thing that is preventing further NATO encirclement is Russia's aggressive position and putting boots on the ground in both those countries.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526223#Comment_118526223

Do one slowpoke. No one is listening to your boring drivel, least of all me. Mate.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526234#Comment_118526234

Nonsense

cheezums

No amount of defence spending would have stopped Russia there unless you want Ireland to spend billions on pointless battleships that we dont need. Complete waste of money. We're a tiny completely irrelevant island in geopolitical terms, acting otherwise is just stupid.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526242#Comment_118526242

We have a defence force because that is what nation-states do, but we 'really' don't have a defence force because we are Ireland....

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526277#Comment_118526277

They aren't conducting exercises in our seas though.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526236#Comment_118526236

“Boring drivel” is what happens when you post substantial, informed posts based on historical events and current affairs. You should give that a go some time instead of crying about car insurance and getting pissy when someone tells you you’re wrong.