Garda preparedness for mass shootings - Glenties incident (2020)

Feisar

I would have thought a MP7 would be enough gun in an urban environment. Just looked it up, Wiki says effective range of 200m. Sure I wouldn't have the warn fuzzy feeling an old school FN gives but it'd still be adequate for the job. Yer man had a bolt action rifle in anything from 22-250 up to some sort of 338 magnum. Sure these rifles have 1000 yard type ranges but one would want to know what they were at to make hits at that distance. Again he was in a town so range will be limited, max effective range is sort of a moot point.

Can someone tell me what a high powered rifle is?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539290#Comment_118539290

it was the rifle he used for hunting deer so .308 or similar. Similar to the round the army used in the FN FAL.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539324#Comment_118539324

And one can get a deer licence on a 22-250 although 6mm and up is preferred. So 243 and up. Actually a 6mm or 6.5mm is ballistically superior at distance due to their higher ballistic coefficient.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538048#Comment_118538048

They just do training and whatnot on their downtime but they’re basically sitting ready to go at any time.

To my knowledge they have absolutely nothing to do with the “regular” Gardai and while they’re stationed in regional barracks they would be in a part of it that’s reserved just for them and their equipment etc. all of it is tied to each ASU member individually and it’s their job to mind it so they keep them well away from the normies.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539290#Comment_118539290

Re: the 1000 yard range, the point I was making was not that he could deliberately aim at and hit something at that distance but to show how drunkenly shooting in random directions could kill someone a long distance away. I just looked it up and a 308 has about 4 times the KE at 1000 yards as a 22 lr has at the muzzle. And a 22 lr is more than capable of killing or maiming at short range.

I agree that MP7s and the likes are good for the Gardai. They don't need to be taking long shots and it's likely that mass shooters will be poor marksmen and looking to "spray and pray" at short range.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538823#Comment_118538823

yes i would, it would be safer for the garda and provide a better service to the public. the issue was the cost

you would be very very wrong . any where outside the motorway network in rural areas can be difficult and slow to get to. some one in a district is obviously going to be faster and safer to react to an serious armed incident , not to mention the likely hood that a local resource might be in a better position to deal with it due to knowing the personalities involved rather than some highly trained dude from 2 hours away .

hard to understand your position on this tbh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539268#Comment_118539268

I was more considering a terrorist attack. there would be no point in negotiation. the above situation, people would just seek cover and wait it out.

Yes it would be very messy.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539477#Comment_118539477

hard to understand your position on this tbh

not that hard to understand. they are defending their employer.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539477#Comment_118539477

Because the ASU are stationed in stations around the country. It's not difficult to understand at all. If there is an incident in rural Cavan/Monaghan for example, why would a detective from Cavan be quicker getting to it then an asu from Cavan? Same in many parts of the country.

issue wasn't cost, the issue was having a highly trained armed support available 24/7. Detectives currently still carry and therefore still have training, those costs didn't disappear. Detectives will eventually be working 9-5, that's the way things are going

ASU provide cover 24/7, unfortunately in rural Ireland ,there might be one car with uniformed members covering hundreds of square miles. The addition of Armed Support Units to the force can only be considered a good thing.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538848#Comment_118538848

there is no kind or amount of training that can counter PTSD

BrianD3

Regarding PTSD and the Gardai, google brings up a lot of hits. Including the one from Cavan where a prisoner had sh*te in his mouth and the Garda got 35k on the basis that she thought he was going to spit it at her.

I also came across this one, the toilet seat part is amusing but I'm also LMAO at The Woke Times using/reporting the terms "deaf and dumb" and "two deaf mutes", is a retrospective cancelling needed here

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/garda-wins-116-347-for-assault-by-two-deaf-mutes-1.225535

To bring it back on topic, there have been a number of other cases where armed Gardai had their firearms taken off them or feared that they would be, IIRC there was a bad case in Kildare? but I can't recall any other details. Obviously there was the murder of Colm Horkan too.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539527#Comment_118539527

As i said , Regional . many areas covered by these regions are vast , up to and including 2 hours travel time even at speed. if there happens to be units working at all. some times cover is provided by a neighboring region making the problem worse. Example , Aughrim or glendalough country wicklow is covered by ASU from mullingar or newbridge. how long would that take at 5 pm on a friday ?ASU are never ever he first on scene hence the "support" in their name .

once again i m talking about regular uniform members already providing 24/7 cover in districts they know with people they know trained and equipped to a acceptable standard awailabe in a emergence situation that required a rapid reaction as was once the case when it was S&W 38s and uzis . and the cost was the issue , retaining and ammo. management felt it was a waste of money post good friday agreement.

DDU will be disarmed eventually leaving the public and gardai even more vulnerable unless they happen to have a ASU nearby.

Cavan ASU covers monaghan also ? parts of it are more than a hour away . thats a long time if some one is shooting at you.

Yes ASU can be a good thing but the retention of a local resource to respond to something like this incident would also be good , and the defining factor that means its not is cost

seamus

PTSD is very common after any kind of high-stress incident, especially one where one's life is in serious danger and the incident is prolonged.

PTSD is not a sign that someone is mentally weak or was "unprepared" for the incident. The famous "thousand-yard-stare" talked about by combat veterans, which for a long time used to indicate that someone is tough and combat-hardened, is now recognised to be an indicator of severe PTSD and mental trauma. PTSD is caused by a combination of psychological and physical factors that occur during and after an incident. While some "preparation" is possible, one cannot exercise control over large parts of their body; you cannot prevent certain physiological and psychological processes from taking place when an extremely stressful event occurs.

If someone armed with a weapon is not even slightly phased after a life-threatening live-fire incident, this should raise a red flag with their superior officers and health professionals.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539450#Comment_118539450

Apologies I took you up a bit wrong. Yes it's always something I have in the front of my mind when taking a shot, bullets can go some distance. Even the 22LR can kill at some distance, warning it's a bit redneck!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKJ0E3TmqYw&ab_channel=Iraqveteran8888

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539636#Comment_118539636

There is also an asu unit in dundalk, which can cover monaghan.

Aughrim or Glendalough at 5pm on a Friday would have local ddu working. There are very very few areas of the country that would take 2 hours driving to get to, particularly for trained drivers.

There are still local armed resources, which will remain I would think until armed support are strengthened.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539675#Comment_118539675

no sure why you keep ignoring the points im making.

How long would you say is an acceptable time to wait for armed back up in an incident where shots are being fired ?

At most two armed ddu working with 9mm sigs and minimal training and basic firearms due to political and economic concerns rather than public safety ones . you would be assuming of course no one is on leave in court or out of the district in enquiries or positions are unfilled because of personnel shortages , saying that realistically much of the time there is simply no armed cover outside dublin . Its taken 3 years for AGS to start to bring ASU units up to strength and they are still at least another year if not two away from achieving that thinly spread cover.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539115#Comment_118539115

The G36 comes in several variants

The full size regular military issue one.

The K or Kurtz carbine length used my military and police forces.

The C or compact which is very short and issued to police forces across the world ,

They are light weight made from polymer and all come with folding stocks and rails for optics , lights and or lazers they are a very reliable and accurate weapon platform .

The ERU also has access to sig 550 semi automatic rifles for snipers or bolt actions depending on whats needed ,

They also use the h&k 416 which is based off the M4 assault rifle only better it's the same rifle issued to the Army Ranger Wing

G36 variants

H&k 416 Eru and ARW issue

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539807#Comment_118539807

Acceptable wait time? About the same as the acceptable wait time for an ambulance. The further one goes from population centers the less people there are, the worse the roads get, the less chance there is of an incident. The law of diminishing returns and the opportunity cost forgone mean it's a waste to spend the money to set up the structures to be able to put boots on the ground in 5/10/20/30 mins in somewhere out of the way.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539915#Comment_118539915

exactly. this is just the gardai saving money not because it makes the most sense operationally.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539807#Comment_118539807

I agree, but they are getting there. It's going to be impossible to have cover for every small area of the country, but it's better then it was.

And obviously there is no time acceptable to wait when you are at one of these.incidents!

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539915#Comment_118539915

ambulance service hardly comparable. coverage is much more wide spread as it is far more necessary and used but also crazily under resourced and equipped

2 or 3 firearms and 8 to 10 people trained twice a year per district not a huge out lay for potential lives saved in the even of a attack such as seen in many country's already ,

It was some thing that existed in the past and was removed due to poor governance of AGS.

I guess it depends how much they are willing to spend on preserving human life

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539976#Comment_118539976

from what ive seen first hand I disagree , the previous arrangement worked much better. Yes its impossible to cover every village and lane in Ireland. Centralizing resources like admin or non responsive units like Fraud EMU or SOC makes sense, but placing a responsive unit a hundred miles away from a possible incident and removing the ability of local resources to defend themselves or intervene in a armed incident only puts people at risk.

AGS seem happy to take the advice and direction of the multiple oversight and interest groups who have no experience or understanding of the actual issues but have a political or economic agenda to the determent of policing and justice.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118540139#Comment_118540139

I agree that the policy of closing smaller stations and districts was a bad idea. Personally I believe that every village and town should have some kind of a Garda station or old station house, where the local guards know everybody and everything that is going on.

with regards to the specialised firearms units, they are a positive addition and yes, they are not in every small station, but they are there. The detectives are still carrying and are still in districts, so there is cover, of course only at certain hours.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118540139#Comment_118540139

I mentioned the ambulance service as an example because as you said it's more widely used, yet the wait times we accept are crazy. If we cannot service the country properly then I'm in agreement, every station should be able to put out a level of force to deal with a shooter. Every station is a bit much but the more remote the location the more need for a low level station to be able to deal with an issue.

Having said all that at the moment from knowing lads in the job, even in bigger towns they have to prioritize serious incidents because they don't have the bodies to attend all emergency calls. For example in my town of 20K people a decent row in the town coupled with two domestics and some poor woman is going to be at the wrong end of a battering before the Gardaí can attend.

Green Peter

ASU and Eru also bring a non lethal option to the incident. Judges in tribunals who have months to sit and think about what should have happened like this option regardless of whether it was realistic at the time. A detective is just bringing a gun to the scene.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118540154#Comment_118540154

Aw to be fair specialized firearms units arent in small stations or district stations or even divisional stations, Regional resource when a region can cover a stupid area and population. AGS have poor resource which they use badly because of poor leadership at the top and political pressure from people who only care about themselves and or don't understand the reality of the world outside their own sanatised bubble, while at the same time ignoring people who they expect to do a job with one hand and no resource.

its amazing it hasn't cost lives and people should know how bad the situation really is as its the only way it will improve

eddie73

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539531#Comment_118539531

If it is a person working behind a till, fair enough. If it is a trained member of the defence forces, they signed up for a dangerous job. The point isn't whether PTSD exists or not, the point is being reasonable in our expectation when we sign up for certain jobs.

Glock17

I've a 223 rifle. Kill range is about 2 miles....

I reckon if there was a terrorist attack in ireland there would be black unmarked helicopters on the scene.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118540368#Comment_118540368

Reasonable expectations don't matter when it comes to the aftermath of any incident. No one knows how they will react, no matter what their training. PTSD is an enormous problem in armed forces world-wide.

Witcher

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118540368#Comment_118540368

Someone has to carry the can and there is a reasonable expectation that any emergency services personnel will be looked after when they suffer harm on our behalf.

BattleCorp1

As a law abiding gun owner, I'd be happy for that d1ckhead to get 20 years. He won't, but I'd love to see it.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118540368#Comment_118540368

Have you seen or found any kind of training that can preempt PTSD , ? i ve never heard of it if so, AGS definatly dont offer it it and i doubt defense forces do either , no one can predict how they will deal with a situation like that i or when it arises

as some one else said if you go through some kind of genuinely traumatic incident like being shot or shot at or even having to deal with the aftermath of same and it doesn't effect you in a significant way it should raise some red flags, speak to some gardai ambo or fire people who have done so and listen to them.

true there is a bravado some times at a scene especially with the first few but to think it doesn't or shouldn't effect a person is unreasonable and certainly can not be trained for, nor should it tbh

TheWonderLlama

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538249#Comment_118538249

Going to bet there is no objection to this lad getting his licence renewed either. Complete joke.

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118541181#Comment_118541181

Nah, no chance he'll get his licence renewed.

ednwireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538249#Comment_118538249

this how in heavens name can you be allowed to go to the other end of the country on a hunting trip. you should have to report to the garda and have secure lock up for firearms at the minimum imho.

might not have stopped this but still.

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118541251#Comment_118541251

You are right. He should have to show papers at the Carlow border to be allowed leave the county.

I do agree with you somewhat though. He shouldn't have left the gun in the car.

ednwireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118541277#Comment_118541277

I've seen people with rifles walking round places where theres lots of scattered houses tracking deer.

just wondered how it worked - obviously just land in with your gun and start shooting.

oh dont know much about gun licenses but thought part of the license was they were kept in a locked cabinet when not in use in a specific location.

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118541561#Comment_118541561

While I have guns I don't hunt so I'm not totally confident I know all the laws relating to hunting so apologies if I've anything wrong here. My understanding is that you can't go and shoot wherever you like but if you've permission to shoot on land, no matter where it is in Ireland, then generally off you go and start shooting.

There are a few other laws such as shooting near a public road etc. but if you've a bit of cop on and only shoot in areas where you aren't endangering the public, there's normally no problem. Other rules include the need for a rifle that is a 'deer legal calibre'. This means that the gun is deemed by the Gardai of being capable of giving a clean kill.

When you saw people with rifles walking around places, were they shooting near the houses or were they just passing by, i.e. passing houses to get to woods/fields nearby?

ednwireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118541623#Comment_118541623

the stag was in the field next to the road, guy looked pretty sheepish when I cycled past. he wasnt actually aiming at the point !

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118541796#Comment_118541796

I think you actually can just chuck it in the boot n go for a spin anywhere on the island it suits you if you’re away hunting afaik

i would at least hope you need to have your paperwork handy if you are stopped though, but you only need it stored securely when it’s not being used.

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118541796#Comment_118541796

He wasn't shooting so he was just 'having a look' when you saw him. Nothing illegal there.

I think it used to be illegal to shoot from a public road or 60 feet from a public road but I think that law wasn't kept when amendments were made to the law. I think it was actually contained in traffic laws before it was changed in the 90's. I was told the 60 ft. thing used to be in the shotgun guidelines you'd get years ago when you got your shotgun licence but I haven't seen that myself. And guidelines aren't law either so there's that to consider too.

BrianD3

8 year sentence for the Glenties shooter.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564934#Comment_118564934

Seems appropriate for the headcase. A blessing no one was killed.

Timing belt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118541962#Comment_118541962

Surely there must be some rules about transporting such as use of a gun lock or the removal of firing pin and keeping ammo secure and separate. It just seems like pure madness leaving a weapon in a unattended car over night.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564934#Comment_118564934

relativity harsh for Ireland and surprising tbh ,

in most country's he would have been shot dead and hardly a question about it,

a lucky idiot although i doubt he thinks so himself

Gatling

Got off lightly ....

Should have got at least 15 years

Gatling

Nekarsulm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565165#Comment_118565165

There are. Ammo is to be kept in a separate lockable container.

And guns should never be left unattended in a vehicle.

You can however understand a bed&breakfast owner's reluctance to hold the firearm in their premises, especially when other guests are present.

Where this falls down is when the licenced owner takes a dose of cocaine and goes completely off the rails.

Judge remarked that 14 years would be an appropriate sentence, before sentencing him to 8.

There's not a firearms owner in the country that wouldn't wish he got the full 14, I'd imagine.

BattleCorp1

This played a part in his reduced sentence.

https://carlow-nationalist.ie/2021/08/04/local-hero-saves-little-boy-from-savage-pitbull/