How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119284434#Comment_119284434

These days I find that some of the posts on the prospects for a united Ireland are getting even more delusional than normal.

Leo is 100% correct, there is no prospect of a border poll passing anytime soon. The nonsensical delusional position that support will go up during a campaign which is based on no idea of what will happen if there is a united Ireland is another aspect of this.

The overall nationalist vote in Northern Ireland is falling as a percentage of support.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119287377#Comment_119287377

So we are now a net contributer, and not so long ago, you were telling us that the EU would provide billions to support a united Ireland. Would that be money going round in circles from our own pockets?

You are like a fantasy writer that has lost control of the narrative and is contradicting themselves with every turn.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119292601#Comment_119292601

Yes blanch, the EU provide funds to projects in contributor countries all the time.

Flabberghasted that you don’t know this tbh.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119292626#Comment_119292626

If the EU spends more money, as a net contributer, we lose more than we gain. Simple as.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119292629#Comment_119292629

We would be a new country effectively and I have no doubt we will have the fullest of support from the EU as it is now in their interests.

I suspect we will see partitionists turning on the EU soon just as their natural allies in Unionism have.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119292641#Comment_119292641

Fantasy stuff, if Europe has to choose between funding the rebulding of Ukraine or giving money to a rich country like Ireland, we don't have a chance.

Your friend Putin has killed any chance of the EU having spare change to help a united Ireland.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119292674#Comment_119292674

You are hoping Putin will come to your rescue now? Oh dear.

The EU can do more than two things at once blanch.

As you have no back up for your claims I will leave you to your delusions that tge EU would stand idly by watch a unification process that they are heavily invested in and whose success is in their interests more and more as the UK goes rogue and joins Putin in breaking international law.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119292724#Comment_119292724

Wait a minute here, Ireland is a net contributer to the EU, and likely to remain so for decades, the EU has much bigger problems like Ukraine and Eastern Europe to finance, and you want me to produce evidence that the EU won't save a united Ireland?

You must be completely off your tree.

There is no evidence that the EU will come to the rescue of a united Ireland, there is only wishful thinking on your part, just like your wishful musings on invading the North and relocation grants.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119293166#Comment_119293166

So you cannot produce a single thing to back the scaremongering. I did say that already.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119293606#Comment_119293606

Eh, there is no evidence, not a single piece, of the EU riding in on a white horse to pay for a united Ireland. What else do you need to back up my point?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119293623#Comment_119293623

I didn’t say anything about white horses, why the need to constantly show how weak your arguments are by lying?

I said, the EU are heavily invested here and now have a huge vested interest to ensure a UI, which solves fundamental security issues for them, succeeds.

The EU invests blanch, like they did when we joined.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119293681#Comment_119293681

No, Francie, the EU don't invest willynilly, they won't be investing in Scotland if it becomes independent and applies to join.

If there is a united Ireland, there will be a grand EU statement, some mutual backslapping and laughing at the Brits, but there won't be no money, unless it is a circular route from the Irish taxpayer through EU bureaucracy.

It is a 1980s fantasy dreamland that you are inhabiting.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119293702#Comment_119293702

Where have they said all this blanch?

Maybe start by quoting our own reps? Any party will do.

You cannot keep making stuff up and expect to be taken seriously. You are in Jamie Bryson, - ‘do some mocking and then follow up with faux factualese’ mode.

Irelandsnumberone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119292587#Comment_119292587

His good mate Neale Richmond is on twitter saying we should prepare for one shortly. Hard to keep up these days

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119293857#Comment_119293857

I have had a good look and there is no magical mystery EU slush fund for Irish unification. I have also checked statements and policies and there is no promise of a magical mystery EU slush fund for Irish unification. So unless I have missed something (and you can point me to it) or you are buried deep in a "build it and they will come" fantasy, I don't know what else I can do to prove it to you.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119297424#Comment_119297424

Who said anything about 'magical slush funds'?

Here's what was said: The EU are heavily invested in maintaining peace on this island. That will continue, why would it not?

The EU are heavily invested in securing the SM and CU and a UI best represents their interests in that regard, why would they not support it?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119297694#Comment_119297694

So there is no magical slush fund to pay for a united Ireland, so we are at idem, then, the EU won't be providing any funding for a united Ireland.

Their support and "heavy investment" will consist of accepting that the North has met the conditions to be part of the EU, that is all.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119297750#Comment_119297750

Back this up please or we will just take it as makey up nonsense.

You introduced 'slush funds'.

My contention is clear, the EU will continue something they are already heavily invested in and which represents a win for them on several fronts.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119297762#Comment_119297762

I agree with you, the EU will continue their support, but they won't be spending any money. Support comes in many many forms, not just grants, but there is no evidence of any money being forthcoming.

So happy to agree with you, that slush funds and grants can be removed from the discussion because there won't be any.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119297776#Comment_119297776

You don't know that and cannot back it up despite repeated calls for you to do it.

In the meantime I will defer to expert views, not the ramblings of a legendary (in the small world of Boards.ie) partitionist.

European political parties on the left tend to view unification positively, while in the wake of Brexit those that lean right have increasingly come to view it as pragmatic and more of a question of “when” than “if”.

Apart from anything else, unification is seen as simplifying the question of managing the EU’s external border, as bluntly acknowledged by French president Emmanuel Macron during Brexit talks when he remarked last year that unity “would solve all the problems, but it is not up to France”.

......

When addressing Northern Ireland, the European Commission usually focuses on the question of peace. The EU put the protection of peace at the forefront in Brexit negotiations, and there is a sense of responsibility for maintaining it following years of EU funding for border and community peace projects over the years.

In a budget agreement this summer, €120 million was set aside to continue such funding, irrespective of Brexit. If any vote were to arise, the reaction across the EU would depend upon the circumstances.

If a referendum occurred according to the Belfast Agreement, with consent on all sides and decisive results, there would likely be cheers across the continent. Many continental observers are unconvinced that even Conservative politicians in England remain unionist in regards to Northern Ireland, and a successful referendum would be likely to be broadly seen as a tidy resolution of history.

But until support for the idea is broad and formally declared, Brussels will likely hedge its bets.

“I think the EU would probably opt for a position of benevolent neutrality, set up the position that this is a matter for the island, but if Northern Ireland opts for integration in the EU in Ireland, the EU will not stand in the way,” Dr Clarkson said.

“I presume that they will smother Northern Ireland in EU cash to try to keep things quiet. A tried and tested EU method. And Northern Ireland’s integration into the EU system would be expedited. I don’t think that would be a difficult position to arrive at.”

Alexander Clarkson, lecturer in German and European and International Studies at King’s College London.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119292587#Comment_119292587

There might be some hope if people would just put their shoulders to the wheel on the ground and go about persuading unionism and others that they'd be better off throwing their lot in with a new vision for a whole island state with new institutions etc.

But instead you get the response, sure why would we bother doing that - let them lump it etc etc. All we need is 51% in favour and all will be grand. Delusional as you say.

As it is, the arrangements made if operated, are pretty good for NI citizens. And one thing we know about northerners in general is that they're cute hoors in the right sense of the word when it comes to money.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119297904#Comment_119297904

Political Unionism is resisting the 'arrangements made' while unionists at the coalface of business and farming see it as being critical to remain in the EU i whatever way they can.

The argument that they are better off in a UI is being made. As you say, they will know and do know what side their bread is buttered on come a plebiscite. Which IMO is why Unionists politicians and partitionists will not allow any talk of a border poll or for planning to begin.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119297968#Comment_119297968

I'm a citizen of the Irish Republic. But if I was a citizen of Northern Ireland, I'd be looking long and hard at what's on offer. Current arrangements for many, not all citizens, but many are pretty comfy. That's obvious when you look at the leafy suburbs and rural areas with fine houses, people from both traditions living in these places.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298014#Comment_119298014

The job of making an 'offer' is the Irish governments. It's long since time they got around to it.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298068#Comment_119298068

The Irish government would need to consult us citizens first and therein lies dragons. There is a general pervading woolly idea down south that a UI would be great - but start putting nuts and bolts on the idea and it wouldn't be long till rocky ground is struck. A UI as a concept is a bit like the way we think of ourselves as the friendliest people on earth or that we have the best education system and so on. Kinda falls apart when reality sets in.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298091#Comment_119298091

There is a constitutional aspiration to a UI. The government have the mandate to proceed on this.

Leo says a referendum will be divisive...of course it will be divisive, all referendums are and have been.

It is no excuse for not planning for a UI.

There is no onus on the government to consult citizens on beginning to plan for something we aspire to. The citizens will have their say at the end of the process

HerrKuehn

As a concession we could change the name of the UI to the "United Kingdom of Ireland and Northern Ireland". So, the unionists would still be part of "a UK", just not "the UK".

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119297852#Comment_119297852

Without a link that could be completely out of context.

And it is one person's opinion, out of hundreds, and a person who does not work for the EU Commission.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119297968#Comment_119297968

The reason you go so hard on the Protocol and adopt the "No Surrender" motto in respect of any changes, is that you know it fosters division and you want to increase division in the hope that a 50% plus one victory can be achieved. It is desparingly divisive.

If the Protocol is tweaked (and remember the Irish government and the EU have already conceded that changes need to be made) and it works for unionism, then Northern Ireland will have the best of all worlds, and the opportunity to become a relatively strong powerhouse will be there. One factory to supply the UK and Europe will be the motto that they will use to attract FDI. The forthcoming demise of Johnson will give the opportunity to fix the Protocol, watch for EU concesssions once Johnson is gone.

A united Ireland would change that equation of prosperity under the Protocol which is why you fear a working Protocol, because while it will help an all-island economy, it will copperfasten the union in the longer run.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298193#Comment_119298193

A Federated Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, member of the Commonwealth, but with an elected Head of State, is the solution.