How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330378#Comment_119330378

Surely if they are individuals they will find their own way? In a climate where they are constitutionally equal and have rights like everyone else to parity of esteem and participation, if they want to participate.

Individuals who do not want to do this, usually form behind a political ideology that will do it for them if they have support. That's how democracies work.

Are you suggesting that articificial support groups are formed and given status without support? That would unbalance democracy IMO and ultimately lead to the same situation that occured in the failed statelet that is Northern Ireland.

WJL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330175#Comment_119330175

Very true😅

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330405#Comment_119330405

"Surely if they are individuals they will find their own way?" - Yes, I would agree.

"Are you suggesting that articificial support groups are formed and given status without support? " - No, not at all.

I want to see the tendency on boards (and by extension in Ireland) for unionists to be lumped together into a huge group of bonfire burning, marching, Jamie Bryson clones to be cut out. That's all. It's too easy to demonise such groups.

My own thoughts on accommodation are well documented in this thread, basically I would steer more towards not changing Ireland to accommodate unionists in the event of a UI. That said there are some things that would need to change by necessity. An example of the latter is the requirement for primary teachers to speak Irish. Practically we aren't going to teach Irish to all teachers from NI overnight, nor are we going to deny them a job for which they're trained overnight. So, there will need to be accommodation of some sort, even if it is for a certain period of time. I'm sure in the detail there will be other, similar items. So in a nutshell, do as little as necessary but don't be afraid of change if it is neccesary.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330484#Comment_119330484

I get hammered on here by some for doing it, but I do always try to ditinguish between moderate Unionism (IMO the vast majority) and belligernet Unionism/Loyalism. Same as there is a distinguishment to be made in republicanism/nationalism

I see no issue with the Irish bar being lifted. It's is a failed power swap inititive to save the language, that is happening in other more organic ways now.

sodacat11

Personally I'd cut Northern Ireland off along the border and float if off into the North Sea as far away from Ireland and England as possible then they could all get on with their bigotry and clinging to ancient history until they'd wiped each other out or else they could cop on and start governing themselves like a normal civilised country.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330367#Comment_119330367

There is a difference between what exclusionary nationalists call complete equality - all Irish are the same so long as they accept they are Irish and can be relocated back to Great Britain if they don't like it - and parity of esteem between the British and Irish identities as envisaged by the far-reaching GFA.

We should be looking to countries like Belgium and Switzerland for structures that incorporate many recognised identities. For example, all Irish living in Belgium are equal to all other people there, but Irishness doesn't have the same recognition as Flemish or French. The exclusionary nationalists want Ireland for the Irish in the formal sense and equality subject to that. An Ireland that recognises the inherent Britishness is anathema to them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330534#Comment_119330534

Knock yourself out.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330601#Comment_119330601

In all my time on boards I have only seen the 'relocate if they don't like it' idea expressed a few times by posters who post once or twice and disappear. A bit like the posters who appear to say 'cut Northern Ireland off and float it away'.

I am also not aware of a single political party that has that view.

You give too much stature to the exclusionary nationalist politcal ideology. It represents about as many as the 'federated solution' junkies do.

And yesterday you rewrote an Article of the constitution that gives parity of esteem and rights for everyone born on this island to just give it to two identities. Now you want all identities included, progress I suppose.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330646#Comment_119330646

I rewrote an Article of the Constitution to conform with the GFA, and you ran away from it, because you won't admit you reject the language of the GFA. The bare-naked emperor of exclusionary nationalism was badly exposed by that.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330669#Comment_119330669

And you got hammered by the fact that there is no stipulation in the GFA re: a new constitution.

You want to exclude others in a new constitution becuase of a fetish to appease. Irishness nor Britishness needs to be singled out in a new state that enshrines parity of esteem and equality for all.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330694#Comment_119330694

Not excluding anyone, just like in countries like Belgium, Canada and Switzerland, federal states with more that one identity, I am giving formal recognition to that through the Constitution. This is simple stuff, Francie, anyone who is seriously addressing the title of this thread has to look at other examples like that.

You have dismissed each and every single proposal that looks at ways to integrate unionism and unionists into a united Ireland in favour of a singular exclusionary nationalist view of the way the world should be. NO SURRENDER should be your motto.

M three

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330378#Comment_119330378

Ok great. So what exactly are these progressive, un-racist, un-sectarian unionists who you claim are in the majority doing to stamp out those views from the racist, sectarian unionists in their midst?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330716#Comment_119330716

blanch...it is you who has a binary view of the way forward. 'Irishness and Britishness'. What do they even mean in the context of our heritage and history. Do we have to start identifying these in order to hand them their rights?

I support parity of esteem for ALL and equality for ALL as expressed in the existing constitution. It is a much simpler and fairer way to write a constitution and will stand us in good stead into the future.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330784#Comment_119330784

I agree they haven't been doing enough, but I think finally moderate Unionism has a leader who may begin the moderating of Unionism politically.

I'm sure it will be controversial among some here to say it, but political nationalism/republicanism has a 25 year start on them, but at least there are signs of progress.

M three

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330879#Comment_119330879

Who's the moderate unionist leader you mention?

Isnt the major issue with unionism that their "leaders" play along with and in many cases incite the kind of sectarian, racist, hateful views that are all too prevalent around July 12th and throughout the year?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331033#Comment_119331033

Doug Beattie. Tweeting disgust and condemnation at the scenes on 11th night ATM.

M three

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331038#Comment_119331038

Beattie's views are certainly welcome.

But there are far more "leaders" within unionism who cheerlead the type of sectarian, racist, hateful views we see around the 12th and throughout the year. The process of integrating unionism into a unified Ireland begins with them. Unionism continues to teach hate to and indoctrinate and brainwash new generations of their kids and that is something that needs to be stamped out. And unionist leaders need to condemn that at every opportunity.

DonegalBay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330716#Comment_119330716

Except everybody in those countries you list are the nationality of their country, people from Quebec are still Canadian, Flemish and Walloons are still Belgian etc. There is no competing identity at a national level. Unionists do not want to be considered Irish, they want to be considered British first and foremost. Also all those regions are based on primarily linguistic lines which do not exist here. As someone who lived in Belgium, despite the differences in regions, nobody wanted to be connected to France or Netherlands in the respective regions. In fact they loathed their neighbours. That is what is different here, you have a group of people who want to be connected to another country which is not the case in the countries listed. The other thing is most of those regions are made up almost entirely of the respective linguistic groups. The divide in NI is much more evenly split. Finally Switzerland is not based on linguistic division, but cantons which are not entirely based on language. Tbh, there is no real comparison between those countries and Ireland.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119325609#Comment_119325609

How could the Irish constitution guarantee that people be accepted as British citizens? Surely the only citizenship the Irish consitution can guarantee is Irish? I mean, there is no way we can say that everyone born in Ireland is entitled to British citizenship as that is up to the British to decide?

As long as our constitution does not forbid dual citizenship then we are meeting the GFA of allowing people to hold british citizenship?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331201#Comment_119331201

My point is that those countries have adopted particular ways to address the particular ethnic and linguistic differences pertinent to their countries. I am not advocating copying exactly any of their systems, just learning from the way that they address these issues.

It is also useful to address the repeated strawman arguments being put forward by the exclusionary nationalists. For example, the Belgian constitution says that "Belgium comprises three Communities: the Flemish Community, the French Community and the German-speaking Community". Yet we have the silly argument from the exclusionary nationalists that mentioning Britishness in the constitution somehow deflects from equality for all.

The historic fact that British people are now native to this island must be addressed in any new Constitution.

FrancieBrady

We can help, by welcoming what Beattie and people like him have to say. Moderate Unionism has long needed a stronger political voice. Small seeds should not be swamped by the legacy of belligerence.

There are still those north and south that try to swamp the progress political republicanism/nationalism has made. They try to keep the residues of belligerence as an equal problem, it is verifiably not as this time of year always shows, and not to mention the blocking of rights still engaged in by belligerent Unionism.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331245#Comment_119331245

Nobody I know, nor anybody of substance in politics rejects this notion that there is a British heritage and identity here. Trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist in a constitution is a fast road to problems.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331245#Comment_119331245

I suspect that was largely true at the time it was written. Even mentioning Britishness doesn't deflect from equality for others then how does not mentioning Britishness deflect from equality? I don't really get the point in putting it in but we can future proof it by saying that Ireland is made up of communities from around the world?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331720#Comment_119331720

It is not about equality though, that is another strawman exclusionary nationalist argument put forward by @FrancieBrady

The GFA talks about parity of esteem, which is a different notion from equality. That is why the Belgian constitution talks about the three communities, but still has separate provisions around equality for citizens. An inclusive united Ireland constitution would do the same.

As for the communities from around the world, we can put that in too, but, again that is supplementary and not a replacement for what is in the Belgian constitution.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331777#Comment_119331777

The fallacy of pointing at Belguim has been emphatically pointed out to you by somebody who has lived there.

We need to design a constitution for ourselves that gives equality to all and parity of esteem to all. You have lied/misrepresented me again I see, in post #3224 I reference 'PoE' and 'Equality for all' as separate aspirations. You just can't help yourself.

M three

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331266#Comment_119331266

Absolutely. But the Taoiseach spent 50million of Irish taxpayer money last year on the Shared Island Initiative that is run from his department but yet he was told this week by a unionist leader that he wasnt welcome in some unionist communities.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/07/12/dublin-must-choose-between-good-relations-with-unionism-or-ni-protocol-senior-orangeman-says/

Should further spending of those funds not be linked to Unionism modernising itself and casting off its extreme racist, sectarian, hateful views?

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330669#Comment_119330669

Artical 2 of the constitution tells the criteria how people are entitled to citzienship in the irish state. Ie born on ireland or born to parents of irish citizens. It is factual.

It is nothing to do with identity. It does not need to deal with identity. Anybody here can identify as they like with out them breaking the law. It is freedom of expression.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331953#Comment_119331953

No, the Orange Order Grand Master said that. He is not a unionist leader, he is the leader of a club. The Orange Order are an admittedly large, but very much minority group, maybe just 30,000 members out of almost 1m unionsts. In addition he was preaching to the choir - at the field on the 12th. What kind of reception do you think he would have got at the 12th with a speech "you know, that boy Micheál, he's a great lad, we should get him to light the bonfires next year."

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331953#Comment_119331953

Yes and FG applauded the leader of the DUP at party conference. And a few months later Simon Coveney was subject to a bomb and gun threat in Belfast, Varadkar threatened also. All stemming from tensions talked up by the leaders of the DUP... Foster, Poots and Donaldson.

I am deeply cynical about the motives of Martin's Shared Island scheme, as it is. But I see nothing wrong with us investing and supporting projects on this island.

Not all Unionism is belligerent and it's being chipped away into history where it belongs. We should not be afraid to help even if progress is slow.

M three

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332059#Comment_119332059

The orange order grand master is still a leader within unionism. And he was knighted by the english queen around the same time as his members in his hall were filmed singing a vile, despicable, hateful diatribe about a young catholic woman who was brutally murdered on her honeymoon.

The thread is how can WE integrate unionism into a united ireland.

All the evidence tells us that unionism itself, and the british establishment has an awful lot to do to make that integration a more seamless process.

Instead they prefer to do the opposite most of the time. All the pressure needs to be applied, directed and focused on them.