How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332824#Comment_119332824

It should be noted that Mick, like the editor of The Newsletter is an unabashed cheerleader of Unionism and some would say blinkered as a result.

You see a lot of this handwashing and dilution going on. 'Don't look at that, look over here'.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332907#Comment_119332907

Where did I say, that you said 'we should copy them exactly'

Strawmen arguments blanch? You are the master of inventing things and then ranting about them.

YOU produced nothing to back up your contention, only your own fatuous faith in your argument. For further research, see any amount of articles on the problems in Belguim and the failure of the constitution to cope.

Parity of esteem for one identity does not need to be mentioned in a constitution. It is a ridiculous notion that an equal society would need to do that.

M three

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332824#Comment_119332824

Read the article. So why exactly is that your response to my points about the below??

Election posters being burned.

Irish flags and GAA emblems being burned.

Effigies of political leaders and women being burned.

Toxic tyres, pallets etc being burned and nearby houses damaged and the council and taxpayer being left to foot the bill.

Plus banners stating "Kill all Taigs"

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332907#Comment_119332907

Most people here say they want a constitution of equality. That is what a republic aims to do. Again the constitution does need to go near the subject of identity. what do you actually want the constitution to say and what meaning will it have. That this state has an Irish and British identity living here? It factually does so why does it need to state such a thing and by doing so it will be inferred that other identities are not equal to them which flies in the face of what a republic is to achieve.... equality.

Your first choice is for north stay part of the UK. if you lose that you will want an independent NI, lose that a federal UI, lose that the constitution of UI has to be written in a way to infer as a British supremacy. You really have this British supremacy ingrained into your way of thinking at every corner

BTW Belgium is a monarchy. Why would a republic where everyone is equal copy a monarchy where they are not. Also does the UK ingrain anything into its law about the Irish identity within the UK? are they breaking the GFA by not doing so or will it just be a UI breaking the GFA in your opinion by not mentioning specific identities?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332938#Comment_119332938

Here is what he said that is relevant to you:

"With the time that leaving Twitter has restored me, I turned onto UTV’s coverage of the 12th demonstrations last night to get a glimpse of what the 12th really means to those who take part.

Their team of journalists (of differing backgrounds) respectfully reported the family traditions of our neighbours and friends across NI. It did more for community relations than a dozen peace programmes.

Beyond the hotspots of Belfast, it remains what many of our bloggers have reported it to be in the past, ie, a joyful family day out as Protestant communities across Northern Ireland reunite in a public space.

Whilst GAA (a marginalised sport in my youth that only we Catholics attended surreptitiously across the north) has become mainstream, public attitudes towards Orange culture have remained antediluvian."

Just like nationalism isn't encapsulated by the rioting and killing of Lyra McKee, neither do the things you complain of encapsulate unionism.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334310#Comment_119334310

Hotspots of Belfast?

Yikes.

Wait til they find out where Larne and Carrickfergus are.

What is Orange culture Blanch?

What's so great about it?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334452#Comment_119334452

Fealty ignores and blanch clearly doesn't know what it was like around the 11th and 12th until the Parades Commission came along and some semblance of equality.

The 12th passes off peacefully in most areas simply because they are not allowed to taunt where they like and are heavily restricted as to what they can do in interface or shared areas.

It's nothing to be all that proud of.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334568#Comment_119334568

The confidence of the pronouncements blows my mind on a daily basis.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119321139#Comment_119321139

What is the diehard exclusionary nationalist viewpoint? You made it up so you surely can supply a definition? By your own telling, you've a similar problem with Unionists, when it suits. But go on, a definition please, I want to see if its the complete shite it seems.

A UI will be an Ireland. Like the nationalists left up north, the unionists will find themselves in Ireland. The most important difference is the unionists will be treated as equals. Everybody being equal is not acceptable for some, yourself included. You want to ensure the political landscape doesn't change too much and thats your only selfish concern. You couldn't care less about unionists.

Anyone wanting to identify as British are free to do so now in the south. We have all religions. Its being equal some have a problem with.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334772#Comment_119334772

The most exclusionary position expressed on this thread is the one that constitutionally enshrines 2 identities and relegates all others. Like the DUP it seems partitionists cannot handle equality for all

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334310#Comment_119334310

"Beyond the hotspots of Belfast, it remains what many of our bloggers have reported it to be in the past, ie, a joyful family day out as Protestant communities across Northern Ireland reunite in a public space." - But the Orange Order is organised intro districts, who have their 12th in random (it may be cycled around periodically, not sure) towns and villages in their area. Ballymena and Belfast buck the trend by holding one every year, Belfasts being in Edenderry village well out of the way. So the hotspots of Belfast are really neither here nor there ?

"Whilst GAA (a marginalised sport in my youth that only we Catholics attended surreptitiously across the north) has become mainstream, public attitudes towards Orange culture have remained antediluvian." - I can understand the equating of GAA and OO to a simple extent, one is RC in nature, one is Prod. However to my knowledge (and I'm willing to be corrected here as not an expert) the GAA does not have "the Catholic Ascendency" as part of its pledge nor does it ban Protestants from joining. The OO does (in reverse obviously). To be fully accepted the OO would need to be fully inclusive, in my view. However if it did that, then its raison d'etre disappears. The GAA has started to become more widespread but could I think be doing more to become mainstream in Protestant areas, not just the headline East Belfast club but more cross-days of youth training between rugby and GAA which already take place at some clubs without anyone really noticing.

"Just like nationalism isn't encapsulated by the rioting and killing of Lyra McKee, neither do the things you complain of encapsulate unionism." - Totally agree with this though, ironically the only thing you wrote yourself.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334772#Comment_119334772

"A UI will be an Ireland. Like the nationalists left up north, the unionists will find themselves in Ireland. The most important difference is the unionists will be treated as equals." - This is probably as good a summary as I've seen. Don't underestimate the fear that exists in moderate unionist communities that they will be lumped together with the Jamie Brysons of this world and treated unequally.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335452#Comment_119335452

Jamie and his ilk will be ignored in a UI.

They will huff and puff but like the reality of the Protocol, the benefits of a UI will relegate them into obscurity.

M three

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334310#Comment_119334310

Mick, who has long been a unionist cheerleader btw, doesnt mention anything about unionists indoctrinating their children into a new cycle of sectarian, racist hate towards Irish Catholics. Mick doesnt mention Kids bonfires, image below. He doesnt mention anything about Irish flags being burned, GAA emblems being burned, election posters of Catholics being burned, effigies of Catholic women being burned. Mick also doesnt mention anything in his whitewashing article about bonfire banners proclaiming "Kill All Taigs". He doesnt mention anything in his article about residents near bonfires having to boards up and flee their homes. Mick fealty doesnt mention anything about the massive cost the council and taxpayer incur for the clean up and policing operation.

Perhaps when Mick and all his fellow unionist voices address and deal with all of the above then what he says will be relevant to me.

So to address the title of the thread AGAIN, How do WE (southerners) integrate unionism?

Once AGAIN I am telling you that the most important aspect of unionist integration begins first and foremost with unionism itself, and the british establishment.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336712#Comment_119336712

Ah yes, the exclusionary nationalist viewpoint that themums need to change and we need to do nothing.

M three

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337077#Comment_119337077

Deflection yet again. Who do YOU suggest guide these people who continue to burn flags, burn GAA emblems, burn election posters of Catholics, burn effigies of women? Who do you think should talk to people who think it is OK to display banners proclaiming "Kill All Taigs"?

Who do you think should speak to people who force residents near bonfires to board up and flee their homes year after year?

If that process does not begin with unionst leadership then what good are they exactly?

Do YOU think all of the above activities are ok?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337239#Comment_119337239

He is right in that, blanch. If nationalists came along and told bonfire builders to reform, they would go the other direction. That has to come from within. At the risk of repeating myself though, I would like to see Irish leadership (eg but not limited to Leo / Micheál / Michael Higgins) letting moderate unionism know that a/ they are welcome and b/ they have nothing to be afraid of. From my seat this would go a long way. I understand the argument that we are all equal, etc but what is there to lose ?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337239#Comment_119337239

Of course I don't.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/dup-leader-sir-jeffrey-donaldson-condemns-effigies-of-sinn-fein-and-alliance-politicians-on-bonfires-41837023.html

Neither does the leader of the DUP. However, you are painting all unionism with the same brush, as if all of nationalism killed Lyra McKee.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337077#Comment_119337077

KAT is a cultural viewpoint that must be cherished in a UI?

You are so ill-informed on this subject. It's embarrassing. For us. You are unaware.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337344#Comment_119337344

Moderate Unionism has a habit of being blind. Honestly, how many hands of friendship and understanding do one group of people need?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337448#Comment_119337448

That isn't what I said. Don't insult your own intelligence by making out I said that. You are better than that.

M three

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337445#Comment_119337445

what is Jeffrey doing to ensure no more flags or ireland are burned, no more GAA emblems are burned, no more election posters of catholics are burned, no more effigies of women are burned, no more banners proclaiming "Kill All Taigs" are displayed and celebrated?

What are Jeffrey and other voices of influence within unionism doing to ensure that 12th July 2022 was the last time we see a huge amount of the above going on and being celebrated?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337490#Comment_119337490

Beattie and Donaldson condemned it. You might as well ask what are they doing to ensure that no more journalists are shot by terrorist gunmen in the Bogside or the Creggan.

People aren't controlled by politicians. Other than calling out such practices and asking that they don't happen, what are you looking for? An excuse just to criticise?

M three

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337510#Comment_119337510

Jees deflection and whataboutery yet again. Here's the thing, jeffrey and other voices within unionism are not doing anywhere near enough to help stamp out vile, racist, sectarian hatred being displayed and celebrated within their unionist community.

They are utterly failing as "leaders". Moreover they tend to do the opposite, stoke the fires of hatred to weaponise it when it suits them.

I think its quite clear that for unionism to integrate into a united Ireland all unionist community leaders and voices need to conduct a major overhaul of their approach.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337510#Comment_119337510

Why do you defend belligerent Unionism so much? It's weird. Especially seeing as you've no real idea about the North.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337454#Comment_119337454

Don't patronise me. You ignored a list of vile acts on the basis that you needed to have a dig at Nationalists who have the temerity to want Unionism to grow the fupp up. Cop on.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337510#Comment_119337510

You do know that Naomi Long slammed Donalson’s statement as wholly inadequate?

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337991#Comment_119337991

Of course he doesn't

FrancieBrady

The KKK had family days out and nobody batted an eye. It was only when whites started to spell out what the KKK stood for that normality for it started to wane.

Unionist leaders need to start the same, spelling out to their own what participation in any OO means you support. God knows, everyone else has at this stage.

DonegalBay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332367#Comment_119332367

You still don't get it and clearly do not understand Belgium. The 2 major areas, Flanders and Wallonia are primarily populated by people who identify with their own region. You definitely would not have many people in either region wishing to identify with the other region, thus it is the National Belgian identity that unifies them. As a result, it is easier to run a federal state and I remember at one point, Belgium did not have a federal Government for quite a while, but the regions still ran themselves.

That cannot be said for NI, as the population is far more mixed, wishing to be be part of the other state(Britain or Ireland)and as we have seen numerous times, they cannot govern themselves as they cannot agree on anything. When Belgium was formed in 1830, the primary factor unifying them was their religion, they also didn't want to be a part of any other state so went their own way even it was a bit haphazard. NI is pretty much the inverse of that, If Wallonia and Flanders had been as mixed identity wise as NI is, it would not have worked either.