How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

droidman123

The british were the organisation responsible for most civilian deaths on this island,if they hadnt stuck their big ignorant noses into my country,there would never have been any such thing as the i.r.a,u.d.a etc

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414242#Comment_119414242

Brilliant. Poor wee Jamie 😀😀

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415180#Comment_119415180

I think anyone who can't bring themselves to condemn what happened at Ballymurphy and steered clear of that very thread on the subject should be roundly ignored when it comes to condemning anything at all.

Irish History

Why is real democracy and self-determination being denied to Irish people in our own country by foreigners? The vast majority of the Irish people of Ireland want our country reunified, so why are Irish people being denied a vote by England and its Unionists in the north.

It is outrageous in this day and age that England still interferes in the affairs of Ireland. The artificial partition of Ireland forced on us, and Brexit being prime examples of my point.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415819#Comment_119415819

Ohh you're not allowed that opinion. The Irish were denied votes and treated as less than and had to fight for democracy and are still fighting for equality, but this thread is about integrating the people who would love to see the North return to those days when they were 100% in control and their well wishers in the south who'd rather keep paddy down if he's not going to support them. Basically the 'what about white people?' lobby in a conversation about racism.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416289#Comment_119416289

I always said the tide would turn when FG FF realise the capital in trying to lead the way on a UI. And the tide is now turning and guess who is clambouring onto the bandwagon?

They have to fully support it because of what would become of an Irish party that rejects it.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416328#Comment_119416328

I was always curious as to who would stand against it. All the 'we can't afford it' talk is grand and all but no party would go against a UI. We know nothing trumps seats and the civil war duo will be singing Wolfe tones if it helps them to that end.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416802#Comment_119416802

None of the main parties will stand against, and partitionists will find it difficult to find a political voice of substance and be lumped in with belligerent Unionism as allies,

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417107#Comment_119417107

Thats FG after a UI. They've already been getting cozy with them. Perfect partners in many ways.

Count Dracula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417445#Comment_119417445

It would make sense for any party in the republic to try to form relationships with Unionists. They would control about 15-20 percent of the electorate if a United Ireland ever materialised. That is a lot of votes and would add up to power in Dáil Eireann, it makes sense.

Of course the current constitution would need to be decimated before it could entertain the concept of the inclusion of any type of Unionist ideology. For example Unionist allegiance to the British Monarchy is hardly going to evaporate overnight. Under a 32 county republic this would most likely need to be incorporated. Never going to happen, Unionists' won't stop singing fook the pope just because a few republican idealists figure Unionists are going to wake up one morning and sheep their entire identity to the very political ideology they are in politics to oppose?

Fat chance.

The very notion of a border poll has Unionists' on their guard and has them planning mayhem if one was announced.

Partition is actually the one thing on this island keeping people alive. A United Ireland is fundamentally a hypothetical scenario at this stage, it is never going to happen in our lifetimes. I reckon in well over 200 years time, when Irish politics has evolved maybe 10 generations it might be possible to generate some sort of rebrand of a United Ireland. But it will take that long at least and any United Ireland will be a far cry from the notions of contemporary Republicans. I just cannot envisage Unionist heartlands like Larne, Ballymena or other areas they control saluting the Tricolour either, not going to happen.

The concept that FG are schmoozing up to Unionists is as hypothetical as a United Ireland. Both FG and the Unionists are well aware that it is never going to happen, it is probably the one area that they would both agree on. At least FG republicans have the dignity to understand the political complexities a UI would demand and are prepared understand what Irish Unionism is about. They will be impossible to integrate otherwise.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417527#Comment_119417527

All very good points, however at the back of all that Britishness is the same driver for the shower down south, money and power. They didn't become orange men by sticking with the English when it didn't suit. If they can secure their hold in a UI they'll adapt.

At least FG republicans have the dignity to understand the political complexities a UI would demand and are prepared understand what Irish Unionism is about. They will be impossible to integrate otherwise.

FG republicans couldn't give a monkey's about anyone north or south of the border. They are fearful of shinners remaining on top and as with FF, will team up with anyone. The unionists are more their ilk than the general population in the south IMO.

We are generations after partition and the want for a UI is as strong if not stronger than ever. Even FG are running after that particular band wagon.

Christy42

The issue is what unionist vote do you go after? The moderates are unlikely to vote in a single bloc, court the ultras and you lose the rest of the island. Renua/Aontú have not resonated with the Irish and socially Conservative policies are unlikely to fly.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417684#Comment_119417684

FG tried to court the belligerents and couldn't be told that the DUP only integrate on their own terms.(look at their dalliance with May and Boris, they all ended in tears) They applauded Jeffery Donaldson at their party conference but a wet week later Jeff and other DUPers were raising tensions against them that led to banners threatening Varadkar and the attempt on Coveney at an SDLP event not to mention the threat to send Irish ministers home in body bags.

Much like what happened after Independence a rump of Unionism will lock itself out of participation in any new state and slowly die out. I agree with you that moderates will find many homes across the political spectrum as will nationalists not aligned to any particular party at the moment. The days of generational support are already over in the south and I can't see it being any different in a UI.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417527#Comment_119417527

"Now is never the time"

Brucie Bonus

The normal people from the unionist tradition will not be impressed by the DUP blockading their lives and businesses from functioning.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417527#Comment_119417527

Partition is actually the one thing on this island keeping people alive. A United Ireland is fundamentally a hypothetical scenario at this stage, it is never going to happen in our lifetimes. I reckon in well over 200 years time, when Irish politics has evolved maybe 10 generations it might be possible to generate some sort of rebrand of a United Ireland. But it will take that long at least and any United Ireland will be a far cry from the notions of contemporary Republicans. I just cannot envisage Unionist heartlands like Larne, Ballymena or other areas they control saluting the Tricolour either, not going to happen.

I think you're way off here. Everything rests on a majority in favour of a UI in the six counties, and that's certainly not 200 years away. Maybe as few as 20, although probably a bit longer. Unionists have been conditioned so long to believe that a majority in NI has a right to decide its fate than when the majority goes against union there will be virtually no active resistance. Anticipating how erstwhile Unionists will react the day after a vote in favour of a UI brings to mind this old Jimmy Carr line

Count Dracula

@Loafing Oaf

I think I alluded to idealistic republican notions in my original post. I am not attempting to cause offense here either. But there is a naivety from many people in favour of a border poll that it will somehow bring about some sort of victory, or resolution to an already tenuous quandary in the six counties?

The very discussion of a border poll raises tensions amongst unionists, they simply will not fathom it. In the unlikely event of either government even attempting to sanction a border referendum citizens can fully expect riots to kick off within hours.

Whilst it would be a great opportunity for nationalists in the six counties - the fact that nationalists would probably win the vote means the unionists won't play ball. The politicians will turn a blind eye to any paramilitary activity which will inevitably commence, more than likely instigated by unionist volunteers forcing the hand of nationalist volunteers. It would not take much for things to kick off again.

I would say any official discussion of a poll would be boycotted by unionists anyways, they are well aware of what it amounts to and will not cooperate with it.

I would encourage republicans to start being a lot more progressive about their approach to enticing almost a million people to join a UI. Waving the GFA around as if it is some sort of blueprint or roadmap to a UI is gormless thinking. The GFA was a means to stop a shower of evil cuntz from killing each other and to get weapons off the streets. It has succeeded in that, but it really should not be used to antagonise either community in the future.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119424598#Comment_119424598

This is all Dan Brown fantasy. Unionists fully understand and accept the role of the border poll under the GFA. If one is called before this decade is out, and it's far from unlikely, especially if the Republic's next government is led by SF, unionists will not go down the full retard route you describe but mobilise every man jack in the community to defeat it.

Count Dracula

As I said there is an awful amount of idealistic assumptions which people have about a border poll, on both sides of the sectarian divide.

These notions are divisive insofar as they do not harmonise either ideology.

Whilst a SF led Free State government might be obliged by mandate to instigate a border poll, every senior member of its' party are well aware of what a hot coal it is. Whilst being able to get a border poll through the Dáil, I am not sure how this process works either? I think they they would also have a duty to their members and voters in the six counties. It would not be fair on the Irish community in the six counties to be faced with the prospect of a return to violence - especially on the whim of free state republican fantasists, watching the mayhem unfold from the comfort of their couch in the south? It will be the Irish of the six counties who will have to live with burning buses and a return to the inevitable violence.

Unionists know that they are unlikely to win any vote, this will be the very reason they will do everything in their power to not allowing it happen.

The best that Free State Sinn Féin can hope for is voting a motion through the Dáil allowing a delegation to make demands for a poll, that does not mean it is going to be realised either.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119424925#Comment_119424925

Neither SF. nor an Irish goverment, can 'instigate' a border poll.

Well, they can but it would mean nothing and put no onus on anybody.

Count Dracula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425003#Comment_119425003

Thanks for clarifying that.

So constitutionally, what is the process of having a border poll?

Is it decided in Stormont, Westminster or Dublin? Does it require the consensus of all 3 parliaments ? For example, does Westminster have the power to veto a vote, or even the British prime minister?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425070#Comment_119425070

Maybe read the GFA, it's all provided for there.

Count Dracula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425120#Comment_119425120

Do have any idea what page it is on?

Help a brother out like?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425138#Comment_119425138

No page numbers. Look at Shedule 1 Polls for purpose of Section 1

Microsoft Word - Document1 (dfa.ie)

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425138#Comment_119425138

Entirely at the discretion of the NI Secretary of State I believe. Which I guess shows where ultimate power still lies in the northeastern part of our Ireland...

https://thedetail.tv/articles/border-poll-mechanics

blanch152

https://sluggerotoole.com/2022/08/01/the-south-is-not-ready-for-unification-andy-pollak/

Time for another dose of reality for our belligerent exclusionary nationalist cohort who dream of border polls.

"Pollak said that guaranteeing unionists their British ties and identity in a post-unity scenario will be extremely challenging to “the complacent nationalism” of the present-day Republic, and that it is very far from the unitary state that Sinn Féin and Fianna Fail have traditionally been wedded to: “We in the Republic sail blithely into an unexamined future with a brainless consensus that in the end the good guys of Irish nationalism will win out over the Northern bigots and stooges of British imperialism, and then we will live happily ever after in harmonious unity.”"

Pretty much agreeing with everything I have been saying on the subject that the brainless consensus has dismissed.

"His suggestion is that unity will involve a constitutional system somewhere between federalism and confederalism, with some continuing role for the British government. "

And here I was being told that nobody talks about those ideas. I won't post the rest of his ideas because some of the keyboards around here would explode with indignation that anybody even considered them.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425234#Comment_119425234

No blanch, you were told there is no political entity looking for this. Maybe you and Andy should start one?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425247#Comment_119425247

Ah Francie, why would a political entity look for a solution, when the only possible solutions are things that neither belligerent side would contemplate, while those in the middle are happy for the status quo to continue. The fact that no political entity is proposing any of these demonstrates that the fantasy of a border poll is as far away as ever, which is essentially the point that you have made for me, without realising it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425269#Comment_119425269

So you accept that this is itself a fantasy? And just a prolonging of partition as a sop to Unionism and Partitionists. A vain plea that themuns don't get what they want?

Man/Woman up and fight for NI to stay in the Union because ultimately that is what you want.

*Do you ever read the comments on your bias confirmation articles from this site?

You should.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425300#Comment_119425300

Not at all, Francie. The fact that such solutions are so unpalatable to the belligerents on both sides shows the yawning chasm between them in achieving a genuine solution. You can cling to the sectarian headcount solution all you want, but you will never persuade people in the middle to vote for it without adopting one of the solutions the likes of Pollak put forward.

When I hear politicians on the nationalist side really adjusting towards some of these solutions, then I will know that they are seriously contemplating a border poll. If it is Mary-Lou who makes the first brave step, I expect you to be out front telling all and sundry it was your idea all along.