How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

13-10-2022 2:47pm

For me it means the unionist and nationalist communities living in peace together with equal respect for each other's traditions - the 12th as a national holiday on equal footing with Paddy's Day, new flag and national anthem (Ireland's Call anyone?) and the DUP and UUP (or whatever unionist parties) in the Dáil. The right for the Unionists to hold British passports should they so desire.

Somehow I don't think this is the vision of many people on the ultra nationalist side. I could be wrong. Interested to hear opinions.

Brussels Sprout · 13-10-2022 2:54pm

I'm ok with all that - apart from Ireland's Call as the new anthem. I'd like a jaunty number like France or Italy have.

13-10-2022 2:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119739586#Comment_119739586

Yeah Ireland's Call is cringe to be fair

Beasty · 13-10-2022 3:07pm

We do not need yet another United Ireland thread

Merged

13-10-2022 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119518085#Comment_119518085

They might believe what they like but lots of them have family ties, property etc in NI. They aren't going to up sticks and leave. If that was the case the Catholics in NI would have left just after partition.

Speedline · 13-10-2022 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119739641#Comment_119739641

I'd leave the flag as is. It is respected throughout the whole world. The ones arguing against it wouldn't vote for a united Ireland anyway. A simple flag change and they would be swayed? I don't think so.

Change the national anthem alright. I couldn't care less about that.

Christy42 · 13-10-2022 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119739641#Comment_119739641

New flag I can live with but is annoying since it will be tough to find a design with the meaning of the current one. No issue with the new anthem. Major issue with all of this is that there would need to be unionist representation which will likely refuse to show up. If they show up we can find something everyone can live with, if not we take what is there already.

Dup/UUP in the Dáil presuming people vote for them which seems pretty unlikely when they are not the status quo and won't work with any major party there. That one is never in question, we won't bar people from the Dáil if they are voted for.

I am cool with a new bank holiday cos I like days off work. The sectarian slogans and anti social behaviours with it can go. Organised marches, with the consent of locals can go ahead obviously.

13-10-2022 5:35pm

New flag

eire4 · 18-10-2022 5:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119739586#Comment_119739586

Totally agree. I am fine with a new national anthem although Ireland's call not a chance.

Dickie10 · 18-10-2022 9:46pm

Hi all, well it looks like i have created a monster with this thread. I suppose i should put in my own tuppence worth now. I ave spent the last year or so following unionists and loyalist politicans and ordinary unioinst folk on twitter to see if it would be a window into thier world, its really fascinating.

My view is that I think I would vote No to a UNited Ireland and just leave things as they are. Let sleeping dogs lie.why?

1) what do we really need a united ireland for now? catholics have full civil rights, education, housing etc. its a totally free society in the north now. it already was by the early 70s so imo the IRA were totally wrong to fight a war against the British army once all the civil rights had been got, the IRA should have stopped their war. they had zero right to force unioinsts and loyalist to not be ruled by Britain if the majority wanted that.

2)why would we want to start up the troubles again? does anyone really think the UVF, UDA, UFF etc would not wage a total war to the death against the Irish army or IRA to banish Irish gardai or the Irish army out of the 6 counties? why would they not? they would use the exact same template as the IRA and claim the Irish army/gardai and politicans were a foreign army invading Britain. the would also bring the war to the south of ireland as the IRA did in mainland UK. think of that, croke park on match day being a target, Temple Bar, irish pubs in any small town like dundalk, naas, galway, killarney. Christ that would rattle anyone even to think of that.

Rememeber the men who went into the pub in Loughinisland in 1994 or Greysteel in 1993 and opened fire on people with machine guns are probably still alive and not overly old. theres eveidence that a lot of the guys in action for the UVF and UDA in 80s and 90s were in 20s and 30s, so only 50s and 60s now. plus a whole new breed who will see themselves as martyrs to die for king and country. young lads 18-35 with nothing to lose and everything to gain in a war to the death against "Fenian scum". Anyone who believes this wont happen is living in a fantasy land. even if talk gets up of possible border poll expect to see the UVF being stoked up, armed up and recruiting. they will see it as their 1912 again, probabaly wiith a new solemn oath and covenant. its so clear to see this happening. i think an independent Northern Ireland to take its place amongst the other small EU countries would be the best outcome. A Luxemburg or Leichtenstein type state would be a good job maybe 10% corporation tax or become a tax haven. baically make everyone very rich, raise the standard of living for them and they wont give a damn about whos catholic or protestant. Also if nationalists in n.ireland are told that the republic is washing there hands of them properly now and Britain says the same to Unioinsts then they have nothing left to fight for or against. Perhaps their politics would slit Left and Right near the centre instead of religous divide. i hope i have made sense in this post.

one last thing, was there ever really anything known as a united ireland? like surely we need to go back to before 1160 to have a total island not ruled by an English king? so why do we really need a united ireland now?

Choochtown · 18-10-2022 9:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119762754#Comment_119762754

"its a totally free society in the north now. it already was by the early 70s"

I was born in the North in 1968 and grew up there through the 70s and 80s and I can categorically tell you now Dickie that your assertion there is very very far from the truth.

Fionn1952 · 18-10-2022 10:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119762754#Comment_119762754

To respond, as someone from a mixed background but very much Nationalist persuasion actually from NI who didn't need a case study on Loyalism due to actually living with it,

1) Given the absolute state of the UK right now, a better question might be why would anyone contemplate remaining part of the UK?

2)Loyalist paramilitaries couldn't organise an orgy in a brothel without their British handlers, I don't expect that to change. They're more interested in how things will impact their drugs trade than any ideologies nowadays anyway.

3) I really don't get how the argument that we spent hundreds of years subjugated under British rule is an argument against Unification.

Do we need a United Ireland now? Probably not. Is it preferable? Some of us think so, some of us don't. If and when the former outweighs the latter, it is coming though.

Capt'n Midnight · 18-10-2022 11:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119516673#Comment_119516673

Based on the budget we can afford it (and half the population will have medical cards , )

The forecast surplus next year for public finances is €11.78Bn and there are lots of items like the 2% GDP for NATO and pre-existing pensions that wouldn't have to be paid for. And NI is still getting inward investment whereas much of GB isn't since Brexit.

https://youtu.be/wO2lWmgEK1Y?t=906

Brexit is shrinking the UK economy by 4% so there's about £40Bn shortfall in govt coffers. And 10 Unionist MP's won't have enough votes to save the Tory party in the next election, and besides there's still payback due for shoving a Tory PM under the bus. And FF / FG would do deals with Unionists rather than have SF in government.

blanch152 · 28-10-2022 4:24pm

When people talk about what is needed to integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland, one of the first necessary steps is an apology to the Unionist community from those who tried to bomb them off this island.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/18/basque-leader-arnaldo-otegi-eta-terror-deaths-should-never-have-happened?

The kind of statement made by ETA needs to be repeated by Michelle O'Neill and Mary-Lou McDonald.

"“Today we want to make specific mention of the victims of Eta’s violence,” said Otegi. “We want to express to them our sorrow and pain for the suffering they endured. We feel their pain, and that sincere feeling leads us to affirm that it should never have happened, that no one could be satisfied with what happened, and that it should not have lasted as long as it did. We should have managed to reach [the abandonment of the armed campaign] sooner.”

An apology like that has never come from Sinn Fein. Instead its supporters continue to falsely pretend that the terrorism was justified. It was not justified then, it is not justifiable now.

xxxxxxl · 29-10-2022 2:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805075#Comment_119805075

will never happen though. Did they not support ETA ? Seems the moderates are in control now and not re writing history but owning it and admitting it was wrong. This is the only way reconciliation works. Both sides admit the wrong doing. I wonder if the ETA party has gotten rid of anyone involved in the armed struggle and consigned them to history ? Kind of the first thing you should do if your serious.

Fionn1952 · 29-10-2022 7:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805075#Comment_119805075

If that apology had come from SF word for word, I absolutely guarantee you would've spent post after post focusing on one sentence and claimed the exact opposite of what you're saying about Otegi's quote. I can even point out the exact sentence you would've honed in on.

We should have managed to reach [the abandonment of the armed campaign] sooner.

Otegi very clearly doesn't think the armed campaign overall shouldn't have happened but that it shouldn't have gone on as long as it did. You'd be the first to condemn that sort of comment from SF.

votecounts · 29-10-2022 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119762754#Comment_119762754

Most clueless post I've written in some time

mattser · 29-10-2022 2:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808293#Comment_119808293

Sorry ??

29-10-2022 8:02pm

There should probably be a thread about how to integrate Unionism into the UK.

30-10-2022 11:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807133#Comment_119807133

People do genuinely forget the IRA did actually apologized

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jul/17/northernireland.northernireland2

The IRA remains the only significant participant in the troubles to have left the stage,the BA,mi5 (operate in ni with zero accountability btw) still there,RUC been rebranded as PSNI and are in constant controversy over a worryingly high level of sectarian carryon of some its members....

The uvf and uda building up a head of steam to breach their cease-fires and not even a smidgen of intent to begin examining those who are still on licence and holding leadership roles within said groups.....

whole thing stinks of a non-sensecical escalation, paramilitaries pushing to return to streets,while few weeks ago everyone were all talks of making NI work based off census results.....it's as bolix as the irexit campaign here,outsiders stirring the pot,for outsiders benefit to Ireland's loss

FraserburghFreddie · 30-10-2022 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119809517#Comment_119809517

The UK is the Union

Speedline · 30-10-2022 1:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119811549#Comment_119811549

Is the UK against abortion just like ni unionism?

FraserburghFreddie · 30-10-2022 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119811711#Comment_119811711

Abortion was legalised here on mainland Britain in 1967.

Speedline · 30-10-2022 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119812335#Comment_119812335

Well if the UK Is the Union, how is it that ni unionists are against the introduction of abortion services in NI?

It looks like they only want to be british when it suits them.

FraserburghFreddie · 30-10-2022 5:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119812370#Comment_119812370

The tail doesn't wag the dog.When was abortion legalised in Ireland?

Seth Brundle · 30-10-2022 7:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119812558#Comment_119812558

What has that got to do with the point that some unionist politicians dont want NI to have the same laws as Britain whilst complaining that NI is being treated differently legally to GB?