How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962762#Comment_119962762

I find it interesting that people say "Unionists" and in the same sentence versus them against "Catholics"

Religion is less of a thing these days. 50% of the people polled could be considered to be Unionist, 27% of the people polled could be considered to be Nationalist. The rest don't know or don't care. And yes only 1000 people were polled and yes there was no context as to what the benefits and detractors of leaving the union and joining the republic would be.

I do however think we are years (more than 10) away from any meaningful referendum, at which point it won't matter.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962220#Comment_119962220

"On the details of the poll that we do have, the headline result is the 50:27 split in favour of the Union. That certainly suggests that a border poll is unlikely to carry in the immediate future."

Or maybe it will, if the British government thinks they'd convincingly win a border poll maybe they might run it with the once a generation caveat.

That is, if the British government wished to keep NI (Which I actually don't think it does)

#messy

Am I the only one who simply doesn't care about Northern Ireland?

Northern Ireland looks different to us, sounds different to us, and is more or less unrecognisable compared to the rest of Ireland.

So purely for cultural and aesthetic and societal reasons, I think adding NI to the Republic would be the political equivalent of adding uncomfortable springs to an otherwise comfortable bed.

As far as I'm concerned I have no relationship to that part of this island at all.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962816#Comment_119962816

I wouldn't share your indifference, but I would certainly acknowledge the huge differences between the two parts of Ireland. The exclusionary nationalists engaged in a sectarian headcount based on the number of Catholics ignore your point, but you are correct. 100 years of divergence cannot be wiped away in a minute or two. A federal or confederal solution offers the only realistic route to a united Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962853#Comment_119962853

I would rather Northern Ireland became an independent country from the UK, rather than become the prosthetic limb of the Republic of Ireland.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962220#Comment_119962220

Nobody would ever say that the question in favour of the union is ever settled, the GFA leaves it as an open question indefinitely.

However, an opinion poll of 50:27, which matches a trend over the last 18 months of support dropping for unity, certainly quietens down talk of a border poll. If the unknowns and don't knows were to break in exactly the opposite way to the headline poll (i.e. 2:1 for unity rather than 2:1 against, a highly improbable outcome), that would leave it looking like 58:42 in favour of staying in the UK.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962863#Comment_119962863

That is an option that should come on the table at some point in the future. It would need guarantees from the two governments around human rights, EU membership etc., to ensure that it functioned properly, but certainly as Northern Ireland matures as a society, it is something to consider.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962863#Comment_119962863

I mean one of the big issues with joining the Republic is that the Republic can't support the economy which has been trashed to pieces. Ireland would likely need EU support to keep NI afloat while an attempt was made to rebuild it. An independent NI would be a disaster, it has been crippled to the point where it is wholly dependent on having financial support from the UK or some entity at least as large and will not be able to exist by itself.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962900#Comment_119962900

Ultimately, Northern Ireland is a half-way house. It's not completely Irish and it's not completely British. It's an admixture of both.

Even if NI were transferred to Ireland, the same problems would presumably exist - the only difference being that we're responsible for it, not the UK. In fact, many more problems besides. Given that situation, I don't see why anyone would clamour to absorb those responsibilities.

Revanchist ambitions have consequences. The hard-line nationalists would do well to remember that.

And I'm no Unionist. As I say, I have no dog in this fight. I just don't care about NI.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962900#Comment_119962900

I question the point about EU support. Even with NI added on, the island would be richer than most of the East European members of the EU. Why would they help out a richer country? Doesn't make sense that the EU of the 2020s would help.

Those who believe in substantial EU help are living in the era of the 1980s EEC.

growleaves

They don't "sound different to us". People from Donegal have northern accents too.

NI isn't viable as an independent country. A culturally bifurcated statelet of 1.8 million people cannot generate enough revenue, without sinking the standard of living, or draw on the patriotism to withstand political and fiscal crises when half the population is perpetually tempted to 'defect' anyway.

Absorption into a larger state lessens the problem, so there are really only two options imo: the United Kingdom or Ireland.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962969#Comment_119962969

Monaco would disagree.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962985#Comment_119962985

Monaco is a microstate for the super-wealthy with 38k inhabitants, a playground for aristocrats who want their own tax rules - not a statelet divided between two ethnic groups.

There's no relevance to NI.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963017#Comment_119963017

Iceland then. We can do this all day. You said 1.8m could not have a country as it would be to expensive. Monaco does fine so does Iceland. I agree for 5-10 years it would be horrible but nothing stopping them setting up a country.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963021#Comment_119963021

So which two ethnic groups is Iceland divided almost equally between? I can do this all day too.

I said this new country couldn't withstand the economic pressure because it essentially contains two populations with one perpetually tempted to defect to a state they border and have historical ties to. I didn't say smaller countries can't exist full stop.

The desperation of soft unionists to think this is a goer is stunning.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963043#Comment_119963043

I'm not Irish so no idea where the Unionist angle comes from. Religion is not an ethnic group. They are all white Irish and British. Ofc they have some other ethnicities.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963043#Comment_119963043

They're two religious groups, not two ethnic groups.

The US has proven you can be multi-religious and successful.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963078#Comment_119963078

• Protestant (42%)
• Catholic (21%)
• Mormon (2%)
• Orthodox (0.5%)
• Unaffiliated (18%)
• Atheist (5%)
• Agnostic (6%)
• Jewish (1%)

USA

is an interesting breakdown.

 Catholic (42.3%)

Presbyterian (16.6%)

Church of Ireland (11.5%)

Methodist (2.3%)

Other Christian denominations (6.9%)

and Other religions (1.3%).

pretty much flipped in NI. The religion is not the Issue it's the people. Presbyterian and COI are completely different are they not ?

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963105#Comment_119963105

A definition of Ethnicity:

The fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.

Would you agree that British and Irish are two separate social groups that have their own separate national and cultural traditions?

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963078#Comment_119963078

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963054#Comment_119963054

The two groups are Irish and Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scots with the second group descended from English and Scottish ancestors. The latter group understood themselves to be different ethnically up to until, at least, very recently if not still the case.

The US is not a relevant comparison, we are talking about NI not a large country made up of multiple states with their own constitutions and local religions. Catholics founded Maryland because they had been persecuted in Pennsylvania and Virginia.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963126#Comment_119963126

For all intents and purposes, we are effectively one and the same people - with a similar heritage and background, albeit different on the religious front at times. We had 800 years of British rule, after all. Same language, history, food, customs, similar traditions, same Christian background etc.

I certainly wouldn't argue we are highly distinct ethnic groups, no.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963126#Comment_119963126

Yes but the British in NI are completely different from the British from Great Britain. They are completely distinct from Wales England and Scotland. They have developed their own culture and traditions entirely separate over the 100 odd years.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963133#Comment_119963133

Its highly ambiguous since some Scots-Irish are originally descended from Irish anyway, e.g. O'Hara is an Irish and Scots-Irish.

However my point was two small equal groups pulling in different directions will struggle with national unity as indeed they already do in present form.

Czechoslovakia broke up into Czech Republic and Slovakia.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963133#Comment_119963133

Fair enough, Irish and British are two separate ethnicities, that share a lot in common in terms of their genetic make-up.

But with regard to the point that NI could become its own country, how do you form an independent country when half want to be part of Ireland and the other half want to be in a union with Great Britain? Neither position would be satisfied.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963133#Comment_119963133

Well in a really broad context maybe. But I still have to explain to some European friends The republic of Ireland is a separate nation to the UK. Ireland and the UK have intermingled for hundreds of years. I'm not great on Irish history so bear with me. I mean What's different to the fry essentially the same. Football and Ruby are huge. Irish people talk about the royals positively and negatively. Broadly the TV is the same just Irish versions of some UK stuff most of the time. You could drop a Brit in Dublin they would no issue getting on. Same if You dropped an Irish person in London. It would not be a culture shock like dropping the formers into somewhere in Europe.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963145#Comment_119963145

But that's exactly why I think it would work. When your house is burning down your not asking the guy coming it to save you are you x religion. They will be to absorbed keeping the place afloat. You would be surprised how an existential threat focuses peoples minds and they will just get on with it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963145#Comment_119963145

I'm not suggesting that it's likely or possible for Northern Ireland to become an independent country, I'm simply suggesting that it would be my preference.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962917#Comment_119962917

I'm inclined to agree that NI is a bit of a place apart and could with assistance, manage as an independent state. But here's the rub, I'd propose it makes sense to add back in Donegal, Cavan & Monaghan. They all share a lot in common and are historically part of the Ulster tradition, which is still strong. That would make it a more viable entity and identity.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962945#Comment_119962945

The EU works on a project by project basis. So I guarantee there would be EU funding earmarked for NI development. It largely depends on what our net contribution is now and what the costs are as to whether or not we would still be a net contributer. As is now the EU funds many projects in Ireland, just less than what we give back out. This is also a subject that is close to German hearts with their own reunification still in living memory and still having a large effect on the wealth of different areas of the country.

I would expect that Ireland would become a net beneficiary for a few years before going back to putting more in the pot than we take out.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963228#Comment_119963228

Your not going to get like 11bn per year off the EU never going to happen. There was supposed to be some fund for Ukrainian Refugees 13bn IIRC have not seen a single Politician here say we received a red cent. Germany will do what Germany does best look after it's own interests. They are not going to fund anything to do with a United Ireland. They looked after the bond holder after all German Banks.