How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118597974#Comment_118597974

Money talks, that’s all you need to know, the poll before Christmas confirmed that emphatically. If the ROI electorate vote no, nothing you listed above will matter.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118597996#Comment_118597996

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118597996#Comment_118597996

Absolute nonsense Dav, no one apart from you is seriously suggesting the Republic would vote against unification in a referendum.

The poll before Christmas confirmed absolutely nothing. Asking people if they would vote for a United Ireland "if it meant paying more taxes" is a scaremongering question, people have to consider their own livelihoods, I myself would have probably also said no if asked that question in a poll, the poll in no way clarifies if it meant an extravagant amount of a tax or an extra few euro in tax, people have to consider if their livelihoods would be ruined due to this tax. Saying yes without that knowledge would be foolish.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596581#Comment_118596581

"The Irish State has to accept their birthright to be British"

That is not up to Dublin. Dublin can't take away the right of London to issue british citzenship to anyone it likes. Likewise it can't dictate to London to give citzenship to anyone it does not want to. Also if Scotland and England leave the UK Dublin can't demand people in the North get citzenship to these countries. It will be up to them.

Anyone in a UI can identify as they want. But Ireland is not Britain. A UI would have a lot of foreign cultures other than British. Perhaps in a UI they could make the 11th of July a Bank hoildays to celebrate all these foreigner cultures in Ireland.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596370#Comment_118596370

"But my worry is Ireland will end up like Canada or Belgium"

There is big difference between the divide of NI and Belgium. In Belgium they live in two different regions. The regions are fairly homogeneous. So a Belgium split would be easier. In the North it is not homogeneous at all. The communities are side by side often separated by peace walls. Even in north Antrim there is a nationlist majority.

If there was a UI and then push for unionists to break away a new jurisdiction it would be impossible for them to agree on a new boundary. It would inevitably have nationalists trapped init which would restart trouble and make any new jurisdiction a failure. NI is a failure anyway, why would anybody think a new smaller NI not also fail.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598083#Comment_118598083

Harry, again, I am not suggesting, I am telling you that nearly 80% of people polled said they would not vote for unification if it meant increases in taxes or affected services. The poll is easy to find online, it was reported by all media outlets in December.

You cannot have unification without cost, anyone who thinks the current UK financial support for NI can be provided by ROI without increasing taxes or affecting services is trying to con us.

So Harry, a poll that asks only about unification without asking about cost is farcical. You think the electorate will let their heart rule their head, the poll tells you they won’t, so it is going to come down to cost.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118597974#Comment_118597974

Given how long SF have been on the British payroll the threats run a bit hollow. A bump in MLA pay and it'll be grand.

SF MLA are the modern iteration of landed gentry. They'll be more concerned about which family member to pass the baton to than anything else.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598367#Comment_118598367

The poll question is far too simplistic though. If a border poll were to land seriously on the table, there would be a much more in-depth proposal for how things would work. Not to mention a commitment from the EU in terms of what funding and other support they would provide. The UK would also have to continue provide cash for the period of transition, say five years.

So it's not as simple as, "If they joined tomorrow, your tax would have to go up immediately". All change would be incremental.

Any future border poll though will have to be based on facts. As it stands, anyone in the Republic under 30 has no meaningful memories of the Troubles. Couple that with an increasingly foreign-born Irish population, it means every year that passes, a unification poll can rely less and less on misty-eyed sentimentality and will need to put forward a solid plan and rationale for it. There was a time that "Ireland should be united" was good enough, but now there's a huge swathe of the population for whom that's not enough of an argument, and they could be the ones to make all the difference come polling day.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598482#Comment_118598482

Completely agree, just asking those two questions is an over simplification. The electorate will ask for, and be given far more detail at the time. But, if cost is the most important deciding factor, then a yes vote is by no means assured.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598408#Comment_118598408

I don't care about SF. Might be best for you to vent your hatred in the SF thread where it might get the reaction you desire.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598518#Comment_118598518

SF / Republicans whatever you prefer. Threats run hollow when you're on the British payroll as it is.

Ireland will continue in whatever way the majority want.

I have a question.

It's pretty much accepted by most people that Republicans have retained their identity and their desires for a united Ireland. Throughout five or six decades, the idea of a united Ireland was extremely unlikely, even an impossibility but republicans retained that desire, and fought for it.

Why do people think that Unionists will simply accept inclusion into a United Ireland and give up their beliefs? Why do you consider the Unionists to be any less dedicated to their views than the Republicans?

There seems to be this idea that loyalists will simply roll over and accept a United Ireland. Why wouldn't they take a chapter out of the Republican history books, and engage in warfare until the Republic caves on their demands? After all, they've seen it work fairly well for the Republicans, and now that their desires are being dismissed in favour of a UI, why wouldn't they fight for their beliefs?

I'm like some actual answers to this. Not the usual deflections that have happened a lot on the thread so far.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598935#Comment_118598935

Because the UK don't want them. Most people over there either don't know NI exists don't understand the troubles or thinks Unionists are "thick Paddies" like the rest of us.

If NI leaves the UK then Unionists could fight for an independent NI but not to rejoin the union cause they are not wanted back.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595671#Comment_118595671

We might suggest to you that you move on - whatever about growing up, you're stuck in some 19th century nationalist mindset.

No point in further debate in this thread. Very clear that the usual have no interest at all in identifying how to resolve differences between the various traditions on this island.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118597974#Comment_118597974

They will need to come up with a vision for a permanently partitioned united country with a new anthem, new flag, new constitution, new symbols, a rejection of Republican history, disassociation with the 1916 Proclamation and so on.

When I read this the first time, I thought you were listing the things that needed to be done to integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland and I thought it was a good start.

kazamo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596921#Comment_118596921

More propaganda from you, your grand plan that involves the vast majority giving up their dominance in Northern Ireland has no basis in fact. But if fits neatly into your narrative, so that’s alright.

Make it up as you go along and sure it’ll be alright eventually.

Involving the 26 counties in a fight not yet resolved is madness.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118597446#Comment_118597446

Unfortunately, going on the contributions to this thread, it isn't a rare breed of stupidity to think just by unifying Ireland, that Unionists will resign themselves to being Irish.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598249#Comment_118598249

We have signed an international agreement that recognises the existence of the British identity on this island, and we have pledged to protect it. That puts it in a different place to the Polish identity or any other.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599078#Comment_118599078

I'd say the proportion of Irish (republic) who support Republicans in the North would be similar to the numbers of British who would support the Unionists. You're exaggerating the interest or sympathy that Republicans receive in the South... most sympathy died with the manner of their fighting, and how they behaved towards their own people. Or as Seamus said, there's a newer generation that doesn't have any connection with the romantic notions of a UI, didn't know much about the troubles, or the significant foreign element who likely have no interest in supporting this issue... all being more concerned with what it would cost them directly.

As for not being wanted... again, there's not much difference for the Republicans and NI with regards to the South. Sure, there's the diehard republican supporters here, but most people I know would be very... disapproving of the IRA or other Republican groups, and don't like being associated with them.

The question remains though. Why would Unionists give up their beliefs and not fight for what they want? Republicans managed to do so during periods where a UI was extremely unlikely.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599287#Comment_118599287

I can't be " exaggerating the interest or sympathy that Republicans receive in the South" because I never mentioned it.

Yes a UI was extremely unlikely but not impossible. Bringing an independent or rejoined NI back into the UK would not be unlikely but in my view actually impossible.

Some of them will fight regardless like those ones we saw battering school kids but it will be a small minority and would not threaten civil war like before.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599287#Comment_118599287

Nonsense, the Republicans fighting against British rule came from all over Ireland, nearly everyone who started the IRA during the troubles in the first place came from the Republic so you trying to place the blame for the IRA on the Catholics in the North is rubbish, either way support for militant Republicans in the North has absolutely nothing to do with a United Ireland.

To answer your other question, there would be no possibility of the North ever rejoining the UK after a United Ireland, during the entirety of the troubles Northern Ireland was disputed territory claimed by both the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. Unionists also wouldn't face the widespread discrimination and brutality that caused the troubles in the first place, so you trying to spread fear of loyalist violence by comparing it to the troubles is complete nonsense.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598935#Comment_118598935

You do have a slightly different scenario though. The Troubles came in on a number of fronts. The first was what they deemed as enforced partition, where the British refused to give up Northern Ireland, leaving them with no say in the matter. A border poll is different, because you have the obvious democratic mandate. Even that can be fraught though. If the Unionist community were to boycott the poll en masse - like the Republicans did - then they can later lean on that boycott to claim that the poll is illegitimate.

The second is less of an issue; The active apartheid policies against the nationalist community. No such policies exist against unionists, nor would exist in a United Ireland. Had Catholics/Nationalists in Northern Ireland been treated as equals from day one, then it's extremely unlikely that the Troubles would have been as violent as they were. When you oppress a community, when you cut off their opportunities, mire them in ignorance and poverty, you breed extremism.

Would there be violence? Almost certainly. But it would be a very far cry from the 1970s. With a sufficiently long integration time and well-communicated commitments to inclusivity and co-operation, the number of extremists looking to fight over it can be reduced.

For example, the right to citizenship is a big one. If all people born in Northern Ireland before unification retained the right to UK citizenship - and probably their children and grandchildren too - then that will placate many. For those whom nationality is baked into their very identity, this is a big deal. "Ireland is in charge, but you will always be recognised as British" is less offensive to one's identity. Consider how it was for Republicans pre-GFA - "You may call yourself Irish, but your government calls you British".

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599200#Comment_118599200

Well obviously that's the goal blanch, to integrate the Unionists and make them feel part of this country like everyone else, if that hasn't been done 50 years after unification then we have failed completely and haven't truly United this country.

I doubt it would be too hard, despite what you and others are trying to make people believe that all the protestants are die hard Unionists similar to Ian paisley. Most of them would move on and accept a United Ireland fairly quickly if the majority of people in the North decided it was time to leave the United Kingdom.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599199#Comment_118599199

It's the same rubbish being recycled over and over again by the same 2 or 3 posters. As I said numerous times if the majority of people in the North decided it was time to leave the United Kingdom then the vast majority of people protestants would accept the referendum and try to make the best of our new state.

You are trying to make people believe that after a yes vote referendum then the Unionists will all be shouting NEVER NEVER NEVER from the rooftops.

The majority of Unionists are decent ordinary people who would accept the situation if a majority of people in Northern Ireland decided it was time to leave the UK.

Harryd225

To the poster who claimed that support in the Republic for republicans was the same as support for the Unionists.

The biggest poll taken during the troubles on IRA support was done in 1979, it showed 22% of people in the Republic support the IRA with a further 26% being "neutral" meaning they don't support them but they're not against them either.

I'm guessing that's more support than the UVF would have had, I'll link the poll if anyone is interested.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599485#Comment_118599485

So the goal is to suppress the British identity in Ireland?

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599592#Comment_118599592

How is trying to integrate the Unionists and trying to make them feel part of this country like everyone else "suppressing the British identity"?

Not many people in the Republic today or any former British colonies around the world still refer to themselves as British. We obviously want them to soon identity as part of this country like everyone else.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599646#Comment_118599646

Why do you want them to give up their identity? What is the purpose of getting them to identify as part of this country like everyone else?

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599696#Comment_118599696

I don't want them to "give up their identity" I want them to eventually come around like the Catholic and Protestant Unionists did in the 26 counties and all the former British colonies around the world did, very few of which still call themselves British today.

That's real integration, there would be no logical reason 50 years from now for a good chunk of our population to still pledge allegiance to a Queen in a foreign country and not identify with the country they were actually born and raised in, some of them may still refer to themselves as Ulster Scot as well as Irish based on their heritage but very few will still call themselves British, it would make no sense.

kazamo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599515#Comment_118599515

Not rubbish, just countering the nonsense that this is a foregone conclusion and that everyone should be applauding the only way forward you want.

You have changed your language to if the majority of people in the north decide.

The same should be applicable to the 26 county vote. And if you think politicians in Dáil Éireann are brave enough to go ahead without a referendum then you don’t know your politicians. That would take political courage and good luck finding that in Dáil Éireann.

No one ever said the majority of Unionists will be shouting Never Never, perhaps just the same number of IRA volunteers who waged the 29 year war. The vast majority of Nationalists weren’t IRA members but that didn’t prevent a long drawn out war.

Only takes a small number of outraged lunatics to make this a very different scenario to your “ideal outcome” and it’s not like there is any shortage of them in the six counties. Loyalism has been on top in Northern Ireland for over a century, but you see them as seeing the vote go through, applying logic, and then accepting the game is over for them and no more pledging allegiance to the Queen, and going quietly into the night.

Where or where in the 50 years can you show Loyalism accepting other people’s ideas as equal to their own.

This is not a foregone conclusion. A few badly want a UI, for the majority both North and South are too busy in their daily lives worrying about mortgages, crèche fees, elderly parents etc to give it much thought.

I would love to see a United Ireland, but not at any cost. The failed state of Northern Ireland needs reconciliation from within first, and Southern voices telling them how it’s going to work, won’t aid the process.