How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

blanch152 · 08-02-2022 2:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599736#Comment_118599736

Assimilation and elimination of identity, the end-goal of Irish republicanism laid bare. To be fair, it is a 20th century concept - the idea of the American melting pot being the best example - but it is now outdated.

Harryd225 · 08-02-2022 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599775#Comment_118599775

Absolute nonsense that I've already cleared up numerous times, you cannot compare the troubles to a pro unification vote. There was widespread discrimination and violence against the Catholic minority which contributed far more to the troubles than constitutional status, Northern Ireland was also disputed territory claimed by both the UK and the Republic of Ireland.

It does not just take a "small few lunatics" to start a conflict, there was widespread sympathy and support for the IRA all over Ireland and around the world. The IRA had support from actual countries like Libya, as I said before the biggest poll during the troubles on IRA support in the Republic in 1979 showed 22% of people supported the IRA and a further 25% claimed to be neutral, meaning they did not support them but they were not against them either, this cannot compare to a tiny few lunatics in Northern Ireland after unification who would have no support whatsoever and no possible way of ever achieving their aims of re uniting Northern Ireland with the UK, the UK wouldn't even have them back even if Ireland washed their hands of them.

Anyone with half a brain can see your scaremongering rhetoric of loyalist violence is completely illogical.

breezy1985 · 08-02-2022 2:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599798#Comment_118599798

Typical of you trying to shut down every conversation about NI by trying to put it on a continuous loop by purposely misquoting people and making everyone out to be a Unionist hating republican so that it fits your victim complex.

Harryd225 · 08-02-2022 2:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599798#Comment_118599798

That's an absolutely nonsensical comparison with the USA, some people in the USA may refer to themselves as African or Italian or Irish or whatever based on their heritage but they all also refer to themselves as American.

Trying to compare people identifying with their heritage to people calling themselves "British" is completely illogical. Calling themselves Ulster Scots would be far different to calling themselves British.

kazamo · 08-02-2022 4:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599855#Comment_118599855

Your dismissing of all viewpoints except your own just proves how narrow minded and brainwashed the advocates for a United Ireland are. Get it done, no matter what.

So according to your poll, 53% didn’t support the IRA when everyone knew how bad is was for Nationalists in the North, and a further 25% were at best lukewarm.

There were a small number of lunatics on both sides because planting bombs in crowded areas is not exactly the act of a rationale person.

According to your logic, Nationalists have a greater likelihood to kill and maim than their Unionist counterpart. There are extreme elements on both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland and to dismiss one sides lunatic fringe supports your argument conveniently, but shows you up to be a blinkered poster.

ittakestwo · 08-02-2022 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599207#Comment_118599207

As said before it is up to London to keep giving british citizenship not dublin. Dublin in honoring the GFA has to keep giving Irish citizenship to the North while it remains part of the UK. In a UI then it is up to London or the countries the UK breaks into to offer them citizenship. Dublin can't make them.

If the UK decides not to give anyone born in Ireland British citizenship after a UI there is nothing dublin can do than just give out about it.

Harryd225 · 08-02-2022 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118600944#Comment_118600944

The only viewpoints I'm dismissing are the nonsensical viewpoints being promoted by you and another poster that the troubles are going to erupt again if unification happens. This viewpoint as I've shown numerous times does not hold up to scrutiny.

The point of my post was that during the troubles there was widespread discrimination and state violence against the Catholic minority and Northern Ireland was disputed territory claimed by both the UK and Republic of Ireland and there was widespread support for rebellion against British rule across Ireland and the world.

None of these circumstances would exist after unification, it would not be possible for Northern Ireland to rejoin the UK and the UK wouldn't even take them back anyway.

kazamo · 08-02-2022 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601074#Comment_118601074

You are convinced they won’t restart…….what is your basis for it.

I have asked for this before, but all I get back is…….we’ll, they just won’t

Violence was a way of life for a long long time up North, to completely ignore the possibility risks another historical blunder

Harryd225 · 08-02-2022 5:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601122#Comment_118601122

I've already explained numerous times, what more do you want from me?

To answer your question yet again, there would be no possibility of the North ever rejoining the UK after a United Ireland, the UK would not have them back even if Ireland washed their hands of them, so what do you think the Unionists would be fighting for? During the entirety of the troubles Northern Ireland was disputed territory claimed by both the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. Unionists also wouldn't face the widespread discrimination and brutality that caused the troubles in the first place, so you trying to spread illogical fears of loyalist violence by comparing it to the troubles is complete nonsense.

ittakestwo · 08-02-2022 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601122#Comment_118601122

If a UI happened it would be by democracy. So people fighting would be going against democracy. Most unionists would except democracy and get on with their lives just like nationalists do today in the North. For the Unionists who feel passionately about living within the UK they can always move to Britain. Yes there would be a few chav males between the ages of 15 and 20 who would use it as a chance to create chaos but they would easily be defeated.

blanch152 · 08-02-2022 5:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601010#Comment_118601010

It is more than about citizenship, it is about identity, recognising it and protecting it.

Harryd225 · 08-02-2022 5:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601181#Comment_118601181

Which we will Blanch, we will protect their right to have a British passport for as long as the British government continue to let them, and we will protect their right to express their support for the Queen of England.

When has anyone said otherwise? What more do you want us to do?

ittakestwo · 08-02-2022 5:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601181#Comment_118601181

OK so how does the UK today recognise and protect both the Irish and British identity in NI? What does the UK do today that you think a UI won't?

blanch152 · 08-02-2022 5:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601197#Comment_118601197

I have given plenty of suggestions, including rejoining the Commonwealth, adopting a federal state of Ireland and Northern Ireland, the things that Junkyard Tom mentioned - a new anthem, new flag, new constitution, new symbols, a rejection of Republican history, disassociation with the 1916 Proclamation and so on.

They are all minimum concessions to the British identity, but there would be more, giving the Union Jack a special status in law so it could continue to be flown, putting Ulster Scots on a par with the Irish language (could mean downgrading the Irish language), as well as other aspects of daily life etc. We might have to look at changing the name of the State or formally recognising the archipelago that is the British Isles.

All of that is before we get near education and health systems. Ireland will have to be changed dramatically if we are to welcome unionists in.

Harryd225 · 08-02-2022 6:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601246#Comment_118601246

None of that is necessary under the GFA, which is what you were talking about in the first place.

We will protect the British identity and we can discuss some of the things you mentioned as a gesture to the Unionists. What we don't want to do is to go too over the top with the British identity and make the Unionists feel they are completely different which would delay integration such as what successfully took place with the Unionists in the Republic of Ireland, very few of which today if any at all still refer to themselves as British,

Blanch it sounds more like you want this stuff to happen based on your own personal beliefs rather than respecting the GFA like you claim, we are not going to completely disassociate and reject all the people who fought against British rule over the last few hundred years like you want, that's ridiculous.

ittakestwo · 08-02-2022 6:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601246#Comment_118601246

If a UI has to join the commonwealth to facilitate the British identity by the GFA does that not mean the UK should leave the commonwealth to facilitate the Irish identity in the north now? Why is it ok for irish nationalist to live in the commonwealth now when they rather not, this is not breaking the GFA. but in the case of a UI, British cant live outside the Commonwealth because this is breaking the GFA. This shows you are not neutral and biased towards the British.

The union Jack would be a flag of a different jurisdiction. It would not be the flag of a UI. Why would we have a law of a UI giving one foreign flag special status to be flown. That is silly. Does the tricolor have any special status in the UK law to be flown atm?

And what people call geographical features has nothing to with politics. Dublin and London are happy to refer to themselves as ''these islands'' in correspondence. this does not need to change.

kazamo · 08-02-2022 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601159#Comment_118601159

And I ask you once more, what is your basis for insisting no loyalist backlash.

You are applying logic and rational thought to a province that lost that faculty decades ago.

The Ulster plantations are there 500 years and for the majority if not all of it, the Protestant side were the kingmakers. Now, with two referendums, they lose that power, and you expect no backlash whatsoever. The fight would be to re assert their old dominant position and not to be dictated to by a bunch of Catholics that they consider sub human.

Logic doesn’t enter this unfortunately.

Continuous funding from the UK allows both sides in Northern Ireland to live in a dream world where their elected representatives can behave like children having a temper tantrum. Pulling Stormont last week, was another example that logic is not the currency they trade on. And what was Geoffrey Donaldson’s answer to the new crises………Simon Coveney needs to get involved.

No logic or rational thinking in Northern Ireland . And you think the DUP supporters will surrender peaceably to a United Ireland.

Every bone in my body want you to be right, but watching and listening to Northern Ireland for 40 years, I don’t see us as being that lucky unfortunately.

Junkyard Tom · 08-02-2022 6:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601399#Comment_118601399

And I ask you once more, what is your basis for insisting no loyalist backlash.

You're the one pushing the idea that there will be unionist violence and to that I ask a question.

Q. Unionist violence, what would they hope to achieve by it?

Repartition? Explain that to us.

Red areas are where PUL population is concentrated.

Force the British to ignore the result?

The onus is on you to provide a rationale. I've been discussing these issues on boards.ie for many years and not one person has returned with a plausible response. Now it's your turn so knock yourself out.

blanch152 · 08-02-2022 6:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601344#Comment_118601344

None of them are necessary by themselves, but they are illustrative of the changes we will have to make in order to fulfil the commitment to Britishness in the GFA.

The GFA recognises Britishness as part of this island. Live with it.

Harryd225 · 08-02-2022 6:39pm

Edit: I forgot to quote Kazamos recent post.

"The fight would be to re assert their old dominant position and not to be dictated to by a bunch of Catholics that they consider sub human".

It seems to me you are still living in the 1800s, the vast majority of Unionists are decent ordinary people despite what you are trying to convince people. There would be no possibility of dominating the rest of Ireland nor would there be any attempt to, I already told you that the UK would not even have them back anyway so any fighting would be pointless.

The vast majority of Unionists would accept a United Ireland if a majority of people in the North decided it was time to leave the United Kingdom, there may be some rioting and unrest from some chavs in a few of the deprived areas but that's not going to cause a conflict like the troubles, it would be quickly stomped out.

I already explained there were numerous factors which caused the troubles such as discrimination and state violence against a minority, there would also be no support for rebellion such as what existed all over Ireland and around the world during the troubles, Northern Ireland was also disputed territory claimed by both the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. None of those factors would exist post unification.

Harryd225 · 08-02-2022 6:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601497#Comment_118601497

You are vastly overestimating and exaggerating the lengths we would have to go to, as I said before no one has a problem with the Unionists keeping their British passports for as long as the British government allows them to.

So what do we "necessarily" have to do to respect the GFA exactly?

eire4 · 08-02-2022 7:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601601#Comment_118601601

I would say rather then exaggerating that was some grade A trolling.

Harryd225 · 08-02-2022 7:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601647#Comment_118601647

Agreed, a couple of these posters on here must be on the wind up.

blanch152 · 09-02-2022 10:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601601#Comment_118601601

You have a different opinion on the lengths we would have to go to, you are entitled to that opinion. However, I am entitled to my opinion without the personal digs in later posts.

The GFA isn't explicit on what we have to do to recognise the British identity in a united Ireland, however as I have shown, it is about more than letting them have passports, we have to do more than that. With the extent of the more undocumented, various opinions, including mine are legitimate.

Adopting a pedantic attitude that unless it is explicitly mandated in the GFA it isn't required is either a failure to engage in honest debate about the extent of the commitment to Britishness or it is head in the sand stuff.

kazamo · 09-02-2022 10:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601492#Comment_118601492

You may have been discussing your points for years but I suspect it was in an empty chamber as the only viewpoint that matters is your own.

It is a sad reflection on you and others that the only way to resolve the issue of Northern Ireland, is to hitch us up with a failed state without any consideration of the consequences of that action. When I was growing up, 800 years of oppression was a mantra, get the Brits out no matter what. You are still stuck in that time warp despite the over 50 years of conflict in Northern Ireland.

Most people would have agreed back then with your 1980’s mindset(myself included). However once the killing stopped, it became clear over the past 24 years that the two communities in NI have not moved on and the siege mentality is still there. The threat of violence never seems to be that far away and reconciliation between both sides has yet to commence.

You conveniently ignore my posts when it suits you.

I have never once said that this Loyalist action to a UI would be based on a rational or logical thought.

in fact, the last 50 years has thought us, that the direct opposite is usually the case. You are applying rationale thought to people capable of planting bombs in a shopping area or going into a bookie shop and shooting, or even entering a pub and killing.

There is no logic to bombing and murder and yet you are thinking this is an academic exercise and loyalists will be convinced by words.

The unionist side are used to getting their own way, and when that is removed, given the warped attitudes and war zone mentality they have grown up in, the peaceful outcome you have envisaged may be in fact a horrible nightmare for us all.

We all want a United Ireland, just not at all costs.

kazamo · 09-02-2022 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601722#Comment_118601722

Ah don’t be so hard on yourself Harry, you’re trying your best 😂

kazamo · 09-02-2022 11:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601522#Comment_118601522

If the unionists are so nice and pleasant and easygoing, why are they still electing so many troublemakers in the DUP.

in late 2020 Edwin Poots announced that covid was spreading more in Catholic areas than Protestant ones. He had no basis for the comment, but even if he did, he was playing to the gallery as usual. The tribal politics is coming from the party receiving over 300k votes. Northern Ireland is divided and in fifty years some Protestants will still identify as British even after a United Ireland. They may even identify as UlsterBritish but I have a feeling that would be an issue for you even after a United Ireland, which would be sad.

You seem to be closer to the 1800’s attitude as you ignore the effect a 30 year war had on their psyche. They Unionists may surprise you and vote to stay with the UK and have peace and be dominant, rather than a UI where they are the mudguard, uncertain future and told by the likes of you to stop calling themselves British.

You keep referring to how the UK wouldn’t want them back, but that actually weakens your argument. The British have had enough of sinking money into an area where there is always an issue, Stormont out, Stormont In, and every time it happens, they need Britain and Ireland to coax them back to the negotiating table. Wouldn’t you be sick of it too, if you were bank rolling that mess.

A United Ireland is the goal, but the Ulster plantations are there for 500 years and won’t be easily moved. They have been enabled by successive British governments and coupled with their dominant role means they will suffer withdrawal symptoms when they are no longer top dog. They also got a taste for violence unfortunately so for some of them to return to it wouldn’t be a big step.

You seem to want the whole reunification process to be packaged in a neat little box. What you choose not to accept is that NI politics does not do neat and tidy and for a while the box had a timer. And your plan makes it sound we are reunifying with Skellig Michael and the seagulls won’t be an issue. NI is a different proposition.