How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595897#Comment_118595897

The two biggest cities have had Jewish lord mayor's.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118655756#Comment_118655756

On that thinking then, as USA has had a black president it has no race issues. And Uk must have no sexism issues as Maggie was pm. Sad attitude

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118655787#Comment_118655787

Well it is surely better than a political system that systematically excluded half the population on sectarian grounds.

Mr Bumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118653231#Comment_118653231

I agree. There's a lot of it about. I dip in and out of these threads because of it. There's no sensible conversation to be had with red herrings. I've listened to the same nonsense for decades and can't stomach much of it to be honest.

The UK included pensions in an historic negotiation to withdraw from the EU and copper-fastened it in law.

For some bizarre reason, this will not happen during negotiations leading to a UI.

And no indication of why this might be the case.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118655889#Comment_118655889

I think most countries done a bit of that either on sectarian, nationality or race grounds. And no I don’t think it’s better.

….and I am not the one wearing the blinkers

Mr Bumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118653182#Comment_118653182

I understand your point perfectly well. I wrote.

"If there is a gap between the UK pension and Irish pension, of course that would have to be made up. Why would it not be if all citizens in a UI are equal, north and south?"

SO you accept I do understand your point?

I suspect you are not getting my point. There are already complex pension arrangements between many nations which have been negotiated. Because they have to be. People move around and have rights.

There are about 300k UK citizens living in Ireland, many of them retired and claiming a UK pension. There are British passport holders from NI who have retired in Ireland and also claim a UK pension. They get the same amount. There is no distinction between the two as far as HMRevenue is concerned. Logically, this would apply to anyone in NI retaining a British passport after unification providing they met the 10 year contrib requirement.

At a year zero point, responsibility for new pensions across a UI would revert to the new Gov but those who have already paid their contribs are fully entitled to claim from the UK. Why would this lapse?

This "problem" you're talking about has already been solved.

Wealthier regions subsidise less wealthy regions in nations across the globe. Why would a UI be different?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118655787#Comment_118655787

Both countries have religions intolerant of each other...why would you not expect some here?

Everywhere has issues downcow.

We are not unique.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118656125#Comment_118656125

Exactly the point I was making. It was montage as feck who seemed to think it was an unusual attribute

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118656224#Comment_118656224

Your point is there is something unique about here, there isn't. It's a minor problem and not institutionalised like it is in northern institutions like the OO and the Executive etc.

cj maxx

We can't. We can however keep working to undo the English strategy of divide and conquer. We have to provide the same benefits as the uk which will require the uk to pay alot of money to get them out of their hair

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118656486#Comment_118656486

Here is one problem demonstrated clearly in this post which will prevent a UI being open to unionists.

This poster has already decided that ROI has not been and is not currently, discriminatory against unionists and a cold house to unionists. He is not interested in what any unionists say who do not agree with him.

It would be like a group of white men in USA sitting down and deciding there is no discrimination against black people and that any feelings black people have comes from delusional thinking and ought not to be considered. and thety could point to a few black people they know or are married into who will agree with them

As I say ROI has barely reached square one. I stand to be corrected, but the only societies that i know who begin their national news each evening with a nod to their chosen religion or dictator are ROI, various Middle Eastern countries and North Korea - possibly China as well but I'm not sure. Anyone know of anymore?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118657583#Comment_118657583

How is a call to prayer which that was repurposed as, years ago, be discriminatory to Unionists? Don't they pray?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118657592#Comment_118657592

i didnt say it was discriminatory.

Here is what i said

"I stand to be corrected, but the only societies that i know who begin their national news each evening with a nod to their chosen religion or dictator are ROI, various Middle Eastern countries and North Korea - possibly China as well but I'm not sure. Anyone know of anymore?"

so maybe answer the question. I'm sure there are many more.

Youre state brodcaster may as well make a statement each evening that 'this is a Roman Catholic country'. Neither community could get away with it in NI as we have got past square one

joe40

Religious dogma and religious belief hold much more sway in Stormont than in Dublin. That is pretty obvious at this stage.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118657605#Comment_118657605

It's not a nod to a 'national religion'. Watch the thing would you? It goes out of it's way to include all.

Please stop with the cliché and generalities. That slot changed years ago.

National broadcasters reflect the dominant religions everywhere, the BBC has religious programming just like here.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118657627#Comment_118657627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118657630#Comment_118657630

You couldn't do a better job at demonstrating what i am clumsily describing.

Here is what your own Gay Byrne says about the 'reworked' Angelus nightly on state television. He describes it as a "sectarian religious service that has no place on a State-owned broadcasting service". Now you can certainly ignore that and say that ROI will carry on with the Roman Catholic call to prayer at peak viewing time. But you should ask yourself why does it do it?

As for Joe40 and his comment on Stormont. Can you imagine if it was proposed that either 'the Angelus' or 'O God our help in ages past' was played each evening at 6pm in the chamber? or on NI national TV for that matter?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118657679#Comment_118657679

Now you need to tell us how it is 'discriminatory'.

I see no need for it myself but it does not represent one religion, it shows people from all faiths at prayer. Prayers of select religions are said in all assemblies the world over and in Western society they are directed at a Christian God almost exclusively.

frosty123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118655756#Comment_118655756

a token gesture, the Jews were driven out of Limerick during 1900's...the statistics speak for it self the number of non-catholics living in the republic has steadly declined since the beginning of the state.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118657775#Comment_118657775

eh? Not according to the CSO.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118657691#Comment_118657691

It absolutely represents one religion. The fact it goes right over your head demonstrates that you haven't yet reach square one. I don't need to tell you that the Angelus calls people to pray to Mary - This is diametrically opposed to beliefs in every religion other than Roman Catholic. So maybe next step for you is to google what discriminatory means! and then share with us your thought - we'll call that your square one, and you will have started your journey

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118657810#Comment_118657810

This is evidence of nothing. A community growing in numbers does not equate to evidence that they are not being discriminated against.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118658123#Comment_118658123

oh dear, someone is somewhat under-informed on his own religion. You might want to get on to the Anglican and Episcopalian churches and tell them they are doing their religion wrong:

Find a Church – The Episcopal Church

Angelus

Devotion in honor of the Incarnation, traditionally done three times a day and accompanied by the ringing of a bell. The devotion typically includes repetition of scriptural verses concerning the Incarnation, followed by the prayer “Hail Mary” (Ave), and concluding with the collect of the Annunciation from the BCP (p. 240).

Angelus - Wikipedia

The devotion is also observed by some Anglican, Western Rite Orthodox, and Lutheran churches.

While you are withdrawing your claim you might address the mis-information you told about Gay Bryne, who did not say what you claimed.

Here is what the leaders of different religions said about the Angelus slot on the telly:

Head of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland and Archbishop Eames of the Church of Ireland welcomed the new version in 2009. The secretary of the mosque in Clonskeagh and the Chief Rabbi supported keeping the broadcast.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118658237#Comment_118658237

So where is this evidence?

You making stuff up about Gay Byrne and the Protestant faith isn't cutting the mustard. Nor do isolated incidents that happen in every society.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118658299#Comment_118658299

You are trying to take us down a rabbit hole. Anyhow you are talking nonsense to justify a discriminatory act. There are 1,000s of reformed churches in ni so you should have no trouble finding me a few who pray to mary.

what you are saying is so silly it is difficult to engage with.

is there anyone else on here who thinks that the Angelus played every night by the state broadcaster is evidence of a pluralist society.

like it or lump it. It is a RC call to prayer which grew in popularity due to the support of pope.

it doesn’t annoy me in the slightest and it’s quite quirky and I think ‘only in Ireland’, but don’t try and pretend it doesn’t send a strong message to many non catholics about who’s in charge.

I thought I was going to get you to square one but I failed

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118659072#Comment_118659072

You don't like it when your nonsense and mistruths get called out. That much is evident.

Your argument is that weak you even had to wrongfully attribute a quote to Gay Bryne to try and give it some weight. The leaders of three of the other main faiths also undermine you.

'It doesn't annoy you in the slightest' is funny, given this is the second time you have raised this if not the third.

Harryd225

Maybe we are looking at this the wrong way, maybe it's republicanism that needs to be integrated into a United Ireland. A young lad from Kilkenny recently set up the Irish unionist party in the Republic, the party’s aim? To get all 32 counties back under the British Crown. He makes some very valid points he is quoted below saying

"I was actually very much socialist and borderline republican in my teens but I’ve come to learn that unionism, in my view, is the only way forward for these islands,” Tristan explains.

https://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/features/745757/kilkenny-founder-of-new-irish-unionist-party-to-continue-campaigning-despite-death-threats.html

Taylor365

I think we should all be Unionist.

The Irish Union.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118659604#Comment_118659604

Funny how these types are never a fan of the European Union though. In the end it's always just pointless imperialist nostalgia, bless their simple minds

Greyfox

The word Partitionist is a slur which is used by immature people who are not capable of accepting reality.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118659994#Comment_118659994

Unionists have no problem being called Unionists, Republicans have no problem being called Republicans. Partitionists seem to have a problem with their label due to a slight sense of shame over their beliefs, which is understandable, calling someone a Partitionist is no different to calling someone a Unionist or Republican based on their beliefs.