How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118669760#Comment_118669760

I don’t know any unionist party or politician who supports segregated education based on religion.

The DUP are the only party blocking the latest piece of legislation on IE

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/dup-confirms-its-opposition-to-integrated-education-bill-41347660.html

ittakestwo

It makes sence why unionists would be against integration. For unionism to survive it needs its members not to intermarry. People brought up in unionists backgrounds need to marry and have kids with other unionists to keep it going. The children of a mixed unionists nationalist upbringing will be more likely to say they're Irish and not see a UI as contentious.

Unionism can't survive unless people from unionists backgrounds will only marry with other unionists. So to keep schools segrated and as much sectarian policy's as it can such as social housing being segrated will be supported by Unionists party's. Also this would explain why xenophobia culture is more prevlent in unionism.

AyeGer

Downcow do you know any unionists living or working in Dublin or Donegal etc, what do they report these days about how they are treated?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118667079#Comment_118667079

The Presbyterian church has, and values, its own national schools in IRL. They didn't seek the continuation of their own schools in NI because, basically, they were happy with the degree of influence they could exert over government schools through their domination of the NI statelet and because, as long as the separate Catholic schools remained, the government schools were largely free of papist pupils and teachers.

It's the point I made earlier, writ large; majority communities generally have less stake in having their own segregated schools because, as the majority community, they generally don't feel the need; they dominate the unsegregated schools. Presbyterians in the Republic are a minority, and they adopt the attitude to schools that you would expect a minority to adopt.

The anomaly is actually the Catholic church in the Republicve, seeking to maintain segregated schools even though, if schools were unsegregated, most of them would still have 90%-plus student body and teachers. (Or, at least, would have had until relatively recently.)

ittakestwo

It also should be pointed out in the south these religious orders are the owners of the land on which the schools stand and not the state. The state is getting to use these school buildings rent free to educate students. It would cost possibly hundreds of millions for the state to buy out the religious orders property. This would be the only way really to have integrated schools in the south. As long the religious orders own the land they can influence what gets taught there.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118670220#Comment_118670220

I agree with the dup on this (in general - I haven’t read the detail).

this is the deep misunderstanding of the so-called ‘integrated’ sector. Their correct title is NICIE (ni council for integrated education). They were formed with good intentions but have had little positive impact.

do you think NICIE schools are more integrated than state schools? Not the case.

let me give you examples from my area which is replicated across the north to greater or lesser extent. I will name the schools simply so as people don’t claim they are just anecdotal.

these are my nearest schools and therefore only real choices for local kids. (Community background figs and not included are the tiny percentage of others which are generally scattered between state schools and NICIE )

annsbourogh integrated ps (NICIE). Last time I checked there was one Protestant family attending who were the children of the principal. Might have improved very slightly by the recent closure of the nearest state primary which was more integrated that annsborough

st Malachys ps O% p : 100% rc zero Prod

Newcastle ps (state school) 30% catholic. 70%p

Nearest secondary schools:

st malachys- 0% Protestant : 100%rc

down high school (state school) 70%p: 30%rc

shimna college (NICIE) 70%rc : 30%p(and dropping)

so don’t be fooled by shinners, SDLP and MDH.

in addition a number of state schools in exclusively Protestant areas are changing to NICIE status to secure additional funding. Their pupil ratios have changed little but they are regarded as attending integrated education.

so the crazy situation is that your child can attend an exclusively catholic or Protestant school and be regarded as being in integrated education or could attend a school that is 50:50 and be referred to as not attending an integrated school.

a little sub note. My mum attended Annsborough PS in the 1940s and it was approx 50:50 and a state school. Ironic it is now an ‘integrated’ school and almost exclusively catholic

….and ask you shinners if the want to end church schools?

…and also wonder why NICIE are next to impossible to get breakdown of community background of pupils. It’s one of the big secrets. Why don’t they issue a simple table?

downcow

I think you should hold a mirror up. This is a very sectarian and prejudiced post. Not really worth replying to

downcow

I honestly don’t. I would be interested to know. My dad is out of it 60 years and I am sure things have changed greatly.

I know Donegal is very accommodating with the 12th in Rossnowlagh and I do see their bands turn up at our twelfth and I see the East Donegal NI supporters club banner at NI games, but I’ve had no contact.

I still have extended family who live in Castlederg and farm small land in Donegal. I must try and have a chat with them.

what are your thoughts. I’m sure there’s a range of opinions. Do you live in Donegal

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118671065#Comment_118671065

A red herring. The state could rent them for a peppercorn rent. The reasons are much deeper and about indoctrination of children.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118671198#Comment_118671198

No. The property has real value. Schools tend, for obvious reasons, to be in residential areas where land is valuable. If the school were to close, the property could usually be sold very advantageously. The state could buy it, of course, but they'd have to pay market price, which in most cases would be substantial.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118669594#Comment_118669594

So you support the right of white South Africans to send their children to state-supported whites-only schools. And the same for sectarianists in Northern Ireland. At least we are clear where you stand on this now.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118671821#Comment_118671821

What utter self serving rubbish.

Not sure why you are allowed away with this kind of misrepresentation.

I support democracy and the right to choose.

I am personally opposed to religions being involved in education.

Now if can sledgehammer me being in favour of racism into that, fire away, you are deluded and desperate.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672013#Comment_118672013

Francie, it is the same principle. You support the right to choose.

You support the right of a sectarianist to choose a sectarian school. How is that different from supporting the right of a racist to choose a racist school? It doesn't mean that you are a sectarianist or a racist, it just means that you support their rights to act as sectarians and racists.

A right to choose is not absolute. You can't choose to murder someone, you can't choose to rape someone, you can't choose to assault someone, and you shouldn't be allowed to choose a sectarian method of education.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118671163#Comment_118671163

More or less tallies with my view of this. IE will only succeed with 'buy-in', you will not and cannot force people like the DUP to use them you must increase provision and the quality of the education and that was what the legislation was designed to do and the DUP are the only party opposed to it.

Probably because they have the same fears that legislating for it as they have about the Irish language. You can't let the enemy steal a march so to speak.

Far as I can see the SDLP and SF are now comfortable with IE, which is a good thing.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672084#Comment_118672084

Schools are 'sectarian' now? Even here? What a pitiful slur on teachers and school management.

Would you ever read the rubbish you write.

Also the idea that people chose segregation in South Arica? All of them? What utter rubbish. The majority people's of South Africa had NO choice, get a grip blanch.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672132#Comment_118672132

I am talking about now, Francie, do you support the right to choose segregated education in South Africa today, if not, why do you support the right to choose segregated education in Northern Ireland?

It is a simple principle here, your double standards are at play again.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672149#Comment_118672149

For the same reason I support the choice here and in the UK blanch. Democracy.

I don't believe a school with a religious ethos is automatically 'sectarian'. You fire that word around so much without understanding it you devalue it.

I sent my COI children to Catholic schools as do many many COI parents and other faiths. In over a decade of doing that there was not one incident that could be properly called 'sectarian'.

You do realise that this repeats itself all over these islands without issue.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118670835#Comment_118670835

I knew a shopkeeper in south county Dublin who was a member of the OO. He got teased about it but no real trouble.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672186#Comment_118672186

A school with a religious ethos in a society divided along religious lines into two sectarian halves cannot do anything but preserve sectarianism, no matter the intention.

Freedom of choice in such a scenario is not democratic, just as freedom to maintain whites-only schools in South Africa is not democratic.

You yourself are fond of telling us that NI is a failed state, but when people point to something that is wrong there, and that can be fixed, you resist the change, hiding behind platitudes of democracy and freedom of choice when what you are really defending is binary sectarianism. Like Sinn Fein, you want division to support the fake narrative of a failed state. The state will only fail if parties like the DUP and SF continue to resist change to make the place less sectarian.

Your experiences of education in the South is completely different to the North, one of the reasons why a united Ireland is not a practical possibility in foreseeable lifetimes.

Relax brah

Give them two options:

1. An Irish passport
2. A ticket out of the country

Simple.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672464#Comment_118672464

I think downcow spelled out why it can't be fixed blanch, IE is provided but as he says, one faith won't use it.

Meanwhile your finger pointing at school teachers and schools is abhorrent and redolent of the bigotry of Willie Frazer and Paisley who did a lot of stereotyping and pointing too. Go inform yourself of what 'sectarianism' actually is.

Your tarring of people just because they follow a religion is scary and dangerous stuff, anyone who has truly understood these islands would know that. Following a religion doesn't make you inherently sectarian.

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672360#Comment_118672360

Things have improved as far as I can see, these days there is a massive amount of what would be termed mixed marriages in border counties in particular.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672686#Comment_118672686

Mixed marriages happened all through the conflict war, I am in one myself as are two others in my family.

The media would have you believe the border was a sectarian cesspit of no-go areas etc, just like they would have you believe the 'lawless, bandit country' lazy trope.

It is not the lived experience of people here. Which is not to say there was no sectarianism at all, before the usual crew start.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672115#Comment_118672115

You either don’t understand or you are misrepresenting the situation.

sf and SDLP loosely support NICIE schools. They don’t care if they are integrated or not. They also support segregated church schools and segregated Irish language schools. The will not accept that there are many more children in integrated school settings in state schools rather than NICIE schools.

Speedline

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118675315#Comment_118675315

How do you feel about Irish language only schools? There are quite a few of them in the Republic.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118675315#Comment_118675315

Not misunderstanding anything. The people who need to be convinced about integrated education are those who don't and won't send their children to it. And you pointed to who that was/is.

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672762#Comment_118672762

Are you on the southern or northern side of the border?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118675679#Comment_118675679

southern by about 100 yards

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118675349#Comment_118675349

No problem at all. I accept that they deserve the higher per head funding that they get as it is a niche grouping. I am glad it is supported and encouraged as a small number of people are choosing to send their kids there.

is it ok that the one in my town has an Irish tricolour flying? I guess it’s fine as long as they have no aspiration for unionists to attend.

Speedline

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118675812#Comment_118675812

8% of children in the Republic attend a gaelscoil. And 4% in the North. A not insignificant amount.

As for the tricolour? Well it represents protestants too. Its not a Catholic flag. It's the flag of Ireland, hanging over a school which teaches the national language of Ireland.

You might be surprised at their attitude to a unionist child attending. I would imagine they would warmly welcome the child.