Man convicted of sexual assault has 23 character references presented to court

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118558249#Comment_118558249

Ah yes, the prosecution has no interest in presenting the aggrieved side at all.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118558267#Comment_118558267

it isn't their job to represent the victim. again, you haven't a scoobies as is clear from pretty much all your posts on anything legal related.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118558237#Comment_118558237

I was shocked reading the article to be honest and Helen Mc Entee not even asked about it on morning Ireland earlier and yes I get your point about the focus of the article, its just extraordinary.

AlanG

Does anyone here know how this works and when the references are gathered - is it before or after conviction?

While I believe character references should not be allowed in court there are others that argue a persons history (good or bad) should play a part, particularly in relation to bail etc. .

The view of many here seems to be that if a person is asked to give a court their truthful opinion on there interactions with the accused then they should refuse to provide the court with that truthful information, and anyone who provides a truthful opinion to the court should be blacklisted.

i would guess that most character witnesses are along the lines of job reference -" I played football with X for 5 years and she never got violent" or " I worked with X for 10 years and in my experience he was always respectful to women when I was with him"

Every second documentary you see on criminals has someone on it saying "sure he seemded like a nice fellow all these years" - should thos people be blacklisted and their businesses boycotted?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118558446#Comment_118558446

after conviction. they have no bearing on the persons guilt or innocence.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118558267#Comment_118558267

The victim is a witness to the prosecution who are there to prove someone’s guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

Why shouldn’t they be allowed to express the impact the ordeal they faced had on them once a conviction has been secured?

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118558464#Comment_118558464

Which makes it all the more incredulous that people are willing to put their names to these things. But we do see it very often. There's a common perception that sexual offenders and paedophiles are greasy basement-dwellers, when very often they are "pillar of the community" types, trusted and loved by the community, who then use that position to engage in abuse. They'll often deliberately target troubled individuals or those of lower standing so that they feel powerless to question the character of their abuser.

This piece of sh1t has probably spent the last however many months denying the accusations, spinning stories about how these girls were trying it on with him, how they're making up lies about him, how they always spreading it around locally, how their families are dodgy and can't be trusted.

And at least 23 people have bought his bullsh1t enough to write character references to try and get leniency for him. And this is why character references are meaningless. Because they're basically just the words of the convicted, regurgitated through a friend who's been manipulated by a self-serving narrative.

Same as those scumbags in Kerry who shook the hand of a rapist in court. All manipulated by the fake narrative that the victim had brought in on herself and trapped a poor young man.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118558267#Comment_118558267

What are you babbling about? you're watching too many American movies.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118558971#Comment_118558971

Feel it’s worth adding onto your point about pedophiles that some would do well to remember the simplest solution isn’t always the correct one. The weird looking guy might look a bit weird but he’s probably harmless, yet the school teacher you trust everyday might be a raging pedophile.

Tork

It opens out a broader question about how many people really think "Gosh, Johnny from the local GAA club is a grand fella and I must write a character reference for him". How many people write these things because they feel it's easier than saying No? I might think that Johnny from the local GAA club and pillar of the community is a grand fella but can I say for sure that he's the same behind closed doors?

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118558584#Comment_118558584

But they are already part of the process. What additional benefit does the victim impact statement add at this point in the trial?

My issue with it is very much what recoded the site expressed with their example.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118559982#Comment_118559982

A victim is a witness to the prosecution's case. They are not represented in the trial whatsoever.

It's similar to any defence witness. They don't have representation by their own solicitor/barrister if they're providing evidence.

The victim impact statement (made AFTER conviction) IS their representation and it's the first time the impact of what happened to them is taken into account.

Your knowledge (or lack thereof) of how the justice system works really astounds me.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118560073#Comment_118560073

And by being a witness for the prosecution means they are involved in the process.

An impact statement should not impact the sentence itself, nor should a character assessment from third parties.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118560269#Comment_118560269

You said they were represented.

They are not represented.

Are you going to admit to getting this wrong?

An impact statement should give the opportunity to impact the sentence especially considering no two crimes are the same.

Character witnesses however, are the complete opposite. It's basically people saying 'ah sure he's a grand lad. Great footballer' and tries to deflect from the acts they have carried out.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118559982#Comment_118559982

The trial is over by the time victim impact statements are read. The sentence comes after the verdict which is a result of the trial.

once again babbling away when you haven’t a clue.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118560317#Comment_118560317

I think it’s a language issue. I meant that their case is represented in the trial as part of the prosecutions case. Though I’m not sure if this makes it clearer?

But what about the cases where no impact statement is available for whatever reason? Are you with a lesser sentence in those cases?

I agree that character witnesses accounts add no value whatsoever.

MacDanger

Character witnesses and victim impact statements are essentially opposite sides of the same coin in that both allow for the presentation of information not directly related to the crime itself. It would be interesting to know how much weight a judge attaches to these elements - I'd be of the opinion that they should carry very little weight in most cases.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118560421#Comment_118560421

If there’s no impact statement then there isn’t. The judge then has to use his own (no pun intended) judgment on how the victim may have been affected.

i think you also seem to believe that if you take two cases that are identical but one judge hears an impact statement and the other doesn’t, that there would be some wildly varying sentences. That is not the case.

In most cases judges have been thinking about the sentence throughout, they look at a variety of factors. Such as;

the minimum and maximum sentences allowed by law, the background of the person on trial, can they be rehabilitated, how long would that take? Etc.

It’s important for a victim to have their say if they choose to. This isn’t exclusive to Ireland either.

Character references however are a farce and should be left to prospective renters or job interviews they have absolutely no basis in court. What people think of a criminal is irrelevant because they broke the law. They’re not “a great guy” if they’re kiddy fiddling.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118560421#Comment_118560421

makes no difference. you still haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

They should be published in full and unredacted. If someone thinks that their opinion of some kiddy fiddler should let him out sooner then bully for them. They should be shouting from the fuckin rooftops since they feel important enough to try to let a paedophile out on the streets sooner. This isn't a victim or a witness, this is someone inserting themselves into the process. They deserve 0 protection.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118560426#Comment_118560426

The victim impact statement is different from a character reference, in that anything in the victim impact statement must only refer to the impact of the offence, and a character reference must only refer to the defendants character, making no reference to the offence.

A recent example is this one:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30813105.html

But the trial of Wayne O’ Donoghue is probably the most memorable one:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-20016122.html

As for any effect the victim impact statement has on sentencing, it’s not much -

The victim impact statement also does a disservice to victims themselves by allowing them to believe they are having a significant input into the sentencing process when research suggests this is usually not the case. Most studies conclude the statements have little or no effect on the sentence given, despite the legislation requiring it to be taken into account.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/legal-opinion-victim-impact-statement-system-is-flawed-1.2373197

Hermy

I've always thought the last thing someone who's been convicted of sexual assault would want is a good character reference as it implies that they know the difference between right and wrong and that makes their crime all the worse.