Can't walk on country roads anymore

con___manx1

Iv met two cars on the wrong side of the road in the last month. One was this morning. I seen the car a mile away but the other was a close call on a county road. The guy had his head buried in his phone. Two of his wheels were on the correct side. Fuckin muppet.

Ave Sodalis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592873#Comment_118592873

It's a study on 4 cars on a single road surface: https://www.toi.no/getfile.php/1340825-1434373783/mmarkiv/Forside%202015/compett-foredrag/Lykke%20-Silent%20Urban%20Driving.pdf

Which should be a limitation considering: https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiaxNbVk-z1AhUWgFwKHUHmD3UQFnoECCwQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.degruyter.com%2Fdocument%2Fdoi%2F10.1515%2Fnoise-2021-0017%2Fpdf&usg=AOvVaw2VA1LD_YBbl_X85cAULUeJ

However, it doesn't really seem to translate fully over to real life scenarios: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811526

The analysis of crash location indicated that the odds of an HE vehicle being involved in a pedestrian crash were statistically higher than the odds of ICE vehicle being involved in similar crash when the crash occurred on the roadway. However, the odds of an HE vehicle being involved in a bicycle crash were statistically higher than the odds of ICE vehicle being involved in similar crash when the crash occurred at an intersection.

Studies in all are limited though, very limited.

So for now, I'd rather take the word of someone directly impacted by it and has every reason not to make it up.

magicbastarder

It's a study on 4 cars on a single road surface: https://www.toi.no/getfile.php/1340825-1434373783/mmarkiv/Forside%202015/compett-foredrag/Lykke%20-Silent%20Urban%20Driving.pdf

i'm not sure if i'm reading that right - there are two graphs on page 9 which shows the ICE vs electric berlingo at various speeds; and they're identical? has someone made a mistake?

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592873#Comment_118592873

Google it.

magicbastarder

so you won't back up your claim.

John_Rambo

https://www.toi.no/getfile.php/1340825-1434373783/mmarkiv/Forside%202015/compett-foredrag/Lykke%20-Silent%20Urban%20Driving.pdf

this is a pretty deep hole you guys are going down

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593800#Comment_118593800

Well it's been proven now, hopefully we can move on and accept that electric cars aren't knocking down blind people every day!

magicbastarder

same link as already posted, so.

the data is not exactly impressive; the graph for 'a modern ICE passenger car' on page 4, and the graph for the ICE berlingo on page 9, as well as the graph for the electric berlngo, also on page 9, are all identical. so it's a bit sloppy.

John_Rambo

Come on Magic, you have eyes and ears, there’s enough electric cars on the road now for us all to realise they’re just as loud as oil burning cars when they’re travelling at speeds faster than a human can run. You don’t need research. 

But if you really do need to research it go for it. 

magicbastarder

just to clarify, i asked for the source because i was curious; i know that electric cars are pretty much the same noise level as ICE cars at higher speeds. was just curious as to when the difference became essentially moot.

i have seen some mention online of calls for automatic noise generators on cars where the speed was 'below 18mph' so the assumed cutoff is roughly the same there.

Ave Sodalis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593813#Comment_118593813

I think you missed my post.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594064#Comment_118594064

Nope. I read it. Hopefully we can move on now and accept that electric cars are just as noisy as ICE cars over 30kph and aren't an extra danger to anyone.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592858#Comment_118592858

The incident I posted where I was almost caught unawares was a slow moving electric car. I didn’t hear it. It was a neighbour and he stopped to offer me a lift as it had started raining, which explains his low speed. He said that in future, he’ll blow the horn when he sees anyone ahead or when approaching a particularly sharp bend. It’s not a road that one would speed on more than once!

Ave Sodalis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594123#Comment_118594123

So we're just going to ignore that road surface has an impact on sound levels, and that in all, there are higher levels of accidents involving EVs and other road users, as well the first hand experience of someone who has had their life impacted by it... in favour of a badly presented single study using 4 cars in single environment. Okay.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594132#Comment_118594132

You didn't hear the car, but the driver saw you and was almost stopped. No danger.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594181#Comment_118594181

Well, the research has been carried out, the results are there, the evidence is there, if you don't like it maybe contact them and tell them you're unhappy with the results and they don't suit you? You admit there's very few electric cars where you live, there's loads where I am and they're just as loud as ice cars, and, as we all know drivers of electric cars are far less likely to be involved in an accident than those at the wheel of petrol or diesel ones.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596689#Comment_118596689

“You didn't hear the car, but the driver saw you and was almost stopped. No danger.” I wasn’t doubting that he’d seen me. I was expressing a concern that drivers unused to our road might not be as careful.

John_Rambo

It's up to all drivers to be careful no matter what they're driving.

I live on a former N road heading out of a town and can say that even around 50k (one of those may-as-well-be-dummies speed traps within 50m) the road noise is far, far louder than an engine.

Ave Sodalis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596689#Comment_118596689

You say that and yet ignore the two much larger studies. Yes, there aren't many but there isn't none.

"We all know", yet I gave you a study (the only one out there by the looks of it) that shows the opposite. I think you're just a wind up now. You're contradicting yourself all over the place.

John_Rambo

Drivers of electric cars are far less likely to be involved in an accident than those at the wheel of petrol or diesel ones, research shows.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/range-anxiety-drives-down-e-car-accident-rates-lz2hgdsr7#:~:text=Drivers%20of%20electric%20cars%20are,makes%20them%20drive%20more%20cautiously.

Ave Sodalis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596938#Comment_118596938

Unfortunately, that link doesn't actually provide any information at all on the research done.

Thankfully, this link delves into it a little more: https://marshall-leasing.co.uk/blog/2021/10/6/508/could_range_anxiety_encourage_safer_driving and shows that it was just a poll to see how many EV drivers have range anxiety, and therefore drive a little slower on motorways. There's nothing to do with how that translates into accidents. Motorway driving is a whole other ball game to country roads. The amount of sound a car does or doesn't make has very little bearing on motorways where there is no pedestrians/cyclists/vulnerable road users.

That research asked 14,000 EV drivers if they have range anxiety, of which about half said they did. As Neale Kinnear says in that link, how that translates over to actual accident rates is only a "may", which means in scientific terms they haven't actually done that research. Compare that to the research done above, that looked at over 24k hybrids, and over a million ICEs and delved into the actual statistics of accident rates.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118597748#Comment_118597748

That's a blog from a leasing company encouraging people to lease their cars. However, quoted here;

"When you drive an EV, compared to an internal combustion vehicle, you start to think about energy conservation and that may lead to more economical and safer styles of driving. With this in mind, there is hope that as we see more EVs on UK roads leading up to and following the ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles from 2030, that we could potentially see a reduction in serious road traffic accidents"

Thanks for posting. Further proof.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598568#Comment_118598568

Not sure that’s proof. Rather a theory.

”May lead….there is hope….we could potentially”

in any case roads are busier than ever and I think both drivers and pedestrians have a duty of care to each other that many miss.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598600#Comment_118598600

Absolutely, and this notion that roads should be only for cars and schools shouldn't be encouraging kids to cycle to school is a joke.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058230518/cant-walk-on-country-roads-anymore

"i used to walk the same road to school" i am abit older than you and the road i walked to school has not changed...

That's is the reason... apart from a few major routes and the small country roads were built over 100 years ago when most people were walking and if you were rich you had a bicycle... the infastructure is not there... simple as...

Hurrache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118589928#Comment_118589928

It's actually 3 points these days.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598633#Comment_118598633

The "small country roads" is infrastructure so you are wrong to say that the infrastructure is not there. The big difference is the massive increase in the numbers of people driving. This is coupled with people driving whilst stressed and distracted.

The vast majority of our roads are plenty wide for a driver to pass oncoming traffic without a need to pull over or slow down. When a driver meets a pedestrian or cyclist they generally have the ability to pass safely. Many drivers are either busy with one of the aformentioned distractions or they just couldn't be arsed giving space to pass safely. Hence this thread!

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598743#Comment_118598743

No i am not wrong... if there are more cars/trucks/tractors there need to be infastructure for to carry same. What you are saying is like saying a family of 10 can live in a house built for a family of 4... I have driven abroad quite abit in my time and we have 3rd world roads...

There are loads of people here from Eastern Europe... ask any of them how our rural roads compare...

saabsaab

I guess technology will solve this eventually when all cars are 'driverless' and won't make any mistakes.

Large bottle small glass

People often say how dangerous the roads are getting, which implies they were safer back in the day; the data doesn't bare this out.

In 1972 640 people dies on Irish roads, from memory there was over a 100 pedestrians. In 1990 there was 478 fatalities and 150 dead pedestrians.

Total road deaths now are lower than the amount of pedestrians being killed 30-50 years ago. The good old days...

In that time and indeed since 2008, the number of vehicles has gone up as has the number of kms travelled, yet the statistics continue to improve in terms of accidents and deaths.

Don't get me wrong, being close passed as a vulnerable road user is really unpleasant and will happen frequently depending on the road you choose. The data would suggest that you will encounter way more cars/vans than you would have 20-30 years ago but they are less likely to hit/injure/kill you.

To my mind a number of things have happened

• we have become much less tolerant as a society to death by car
• the number of "close" encounters between motorised traffic and vulnerable road users AND their reporting have increased substantially
• its become a common click bait/culture war topic for the rag paper/craapy radio station of choice

Personally as someone who walks and cycles a lot on public roads my encounters are almost entirely really infrequent and pleasant; stay the fcuk off national and regional roads and use local knowledge to pick the quieter L roads. The worst the surface the better for safety; potholes are your friend

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-tranom/transportomnibus2019/roadsafetyandroadlengths/

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-tranom/transportomnibus2019/roadtrafficvolumes/

https://www.gov.ie/en/policy-information/0eb589-road-safety/#road-deaths-in-ireland

https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/ireland-road-safety.pdf

Macy0161

The road death stats are only one aspect though. Active travel has to be way down over that period too? I know at the age my teenagers are now, walking and cycling was the predominant mode of transport for me and my friends in rural Ireland (and when I lived in a city). It really isn't the case for them now - it is getting dropped off, and the perception/ reality of how safe the roads are is a major factor in that for parents.

Also, avoiding regional and national roads is all very well, unless you live on a national or regional roads, and ignore the fact that most villages are connected by regional roads. "Going for a stroll" you may minimise the use, avoiding them isn't much use if you're trying to walk to the shop, school, library, community centre etc.

Ave Sodalis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598568#Comment_118598568

It's a blog that only states what was in the reports. It's not an opinion piece. The Times article doesn't really say anything, as there's only about 2 more lines after the payroll.

"May" is what I noted. The research hasn't been done on that and they're guessing that lower speeds on motorways leads to lower accident rates on motorways. Which, at the risk of sounding like a parrot, isn't really relevant to country roads.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599589#Comment_118599589

They are road traffic numbers, injury and death numbers. The numbers in terms of 150-30 deaths are staggering.

Have you any data or just personal anecdotes?

In ever location I've lived since returning to cycling in 2006, Cork City, Crosshaven, Clonmel, Dungarvan, rural west Waterford accessing primarily L roads is really really simple. For ever regional /national road there is nearly always at least an L road alternative; I spend my spare time mapping such routes in areas I live/holiday/leisure cycle in.

Large bottle small glass

magicbastarder

in terms of data, one example i can think of is that the number of students cycling to school between 1991 and 2016 fell by a factor of six.

i think the numbers cycling to work has fallen by a smaller factor, it's roughly halved IIRC.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598826#Comment_118598826

Your comparison of ten people living in a house built for four is nonsense. Our roads are busier than they used to be but whilst there has been a massive increase in car ownership in the last twenty or thirty years, most of this is in urban areas and most of these roads have been upgraded.

The rural roads would have seen a proportional increase in traffic but they are not choked as per your analogy. Whilst there have been improvements to rural roads including some widening and realignment, most of those roads are not congested to the point that they need an overhaul. This however does not take from the fact that they are busier and tend to be carrying faster traffic where the drivers are distracted.

Overall, our roads (both rural and urban) have become dominated by more traffic which moves faster. For this reason many people (rightly or wrongly) do not feel safe either walking or cycling on them.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599653#Comment_118599653

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6stp/

I don't think anyone would suggest the trends have changed since the last census.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118600109#Comment_118600109

Pedestrian deaths have gone from 150-30; in that time the national fleet and the average driving per vehicle has ballooned.

If the absolute risk has increased then the current number of dead pedestrians should be significantly higher? A halving in school kids walking/cycling doesn't explain the contention that the roads are more dangerous given the vastly increased fleet and their average annual mileage.

Show be the data/science that supports the thread title. I can't find it but haven't made up my mind either way.

People in their 30/40/50's looking back to their youth are doing so with the risk aversion of middle age at a time when they couldn't spell nor appreciate risk/danger.

Most discussions are fear/anxiety driven rather than reasoned data driven. Most human struggles are solved better with the latter

AndrewJRenko

Let's not forget the dramatic increase in vehicle sizes over the past couple of decades, leaving SFA room for anyone or anything else;

boardise

There's been a good ventilation of the issues and I don't want to derail the thread but may I just mention that country roads are not the only unsafe location for walkers/pedestrians. One is not safe either on city footpaths. Why ? Because not only are many cyclists using them -sometimes even where there is a cycle lane running alongside- but now there is a scourge of escooters using them as well. I've seen people on escooters weaving in and out on crowded city pavements. This is C-R-A-Z-Y stuff and should be clamped down on without delay. I'm surprised it hasn't become a matter for urgent public debate with concomitant political action.

Scooters should be under licence and carry some form of identification. Otherwise it's heading for anarchy out there.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118600291#Comment_118600291

The government/EU booted that on. You would struggle to get a really small car past all the safety requirements unless it's one that only does 45kph like that electric Citroen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118600288#Comment_118600288

Technically you are correct. But there is no causality represented in your analysis. I know that when we used to visit our cousins and extended family in west county Sligo, when I was a kid, we walked to the village along what is now the N59, and happily played in the roads down to the coast road and the beaches

no one in their right mind would ever do that now. Even the coast road is dodgy enough. So while no one is getting killed, ‘proved’ in your data, it’s because no one is crazy enough to walk to school or the village any more

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118600288#Comment_118600288

I am starting off by saying I'm not a statistician, but if the numbers of pedestrians has also decreased significantly, it offsets the increase in vehicles and journeys?

CSO only collects commuting stats as far as I'm aware. So what are we left with? Anecdotal evidence - amongst my peer group we walked and cycled. Amongst my peer groups children, we're forever mam and dad cabs.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118599897#Comment_118599897

Try driving around Lucan/M4 Friday evening.... The reason its not safe is there is not enough space for the traffic... I travel quite a bit but fortunately i can avoid the busier times...

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118600679#Comment_118600679

The thread title and your posting among others is that the roads are more dangerous; you need more than anecdotes to prove that.

I've presented irrefutable data which shows that pedestrian deaths are 20% of what they were 30 years ago, road deaths in general which have reduced from a peak to current levels which are about 21% of peak.

During this period there are way more vehicles doing way more driving. If the drivers in these cars are "more dangerous" they we should have an increase in the numbers not a falling of the cliff reduction.

Here's how the scientific method works

1) make an observation that describes a problem,

2) create a hypothesis,

3) test the hypothesis,

4) draw conclusions and refine the hypothesis.

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601463#Comment_118601463

Where is the data to show how the percentage of people who regularly walked or cycled on the roads back then compared to today. If anything the data presented shows that the roads have become unusable to anything but Vehicles which is what I said in my original post.

I can no longer walk or cycle on the country roads around me. I used to walk to School when I was younger, it was very safe. Today nobody in there right mind would let a child out on the roads; data or no data.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601463#Comment_118601463

You’re not great at statistics. You’ve shown no causality. You’re just presenting your own bias

A number of us have stated how we and our families used to walk on the roads but no longer do so. I’m sure I could find stats that show how many kids walk to school now compared to yesteryear. But I don’t care enough to do so. But we all know that the number is way way down

and if no one walks on the road then no one dies

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601877#Comment_118601877

No I'm saying the hypothesis that roads are much dangerous is not compatible with the available data.

The onus is on the person with the hypothesis to prove it.

So it was way safer 20-30 years ago to walk even with 150 pedestrian deaths? That's 3 a week

That's an extraordinary claim which requires evidence of a higher standard than "the young me thought it was grand but middle age me won't do it"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118602263#Comment_118602263

Your data is useless unless overlaid with data saying how many people are walking on said roads. Your argument is utterly illogical.

we’re not going anywhere here. I’m out