Amnesty scheme for undocumented migrants in Ireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595165#Comment_118595165

But I think my point still stands as the Irish government calling for an Amnesty here, sends out a message to the undocumented Irish abroad and strengthens their case IMO anyway.

They don't have a case. They're breaking the immigration laws of the US... Unless the case is that we encourage illegal behaviour?

This logic is nuts. Immigration laws are in place to protect the native population, regulate who manages to come into a nation (the best possible for the situation), etc. These laws are not going to be removed, so the idea of an amnesty only extends to a single time.. at least it should, otherwise, why have those laws at all?

People who have avoided gaining or renewing visas to stay in a country have shown their contempt for the laws of that nation. As such, they're unsuitable to be exempted from those requirements through this or any amnesty.

As for the numbers of undocumented immigrants in Ireland it seems to be 15k -20k

Actually, the reports go with anything from 12k to 30k depending on where you check, and those are the old estimates from last year, so they're not current.

Also, it's unrelated to what I said earlier. To be matching any desire for an amnesty for illegal Irish migrants in the US, the amnesty here should be aimed at American illegal migrants, and I suspect the vast majority of Americans that are here, are here legally. This amnesty has nothing to do with Irish migrants in the US... since it's aimed at those who are not from the US, which make up the vast majority of illegal migrants here, ie, groups like the Brazilian students with lapsed visas, or migrants from the M.East.

This is just more smoke and mirrors. Aiming to regulate the erratic behaviour of Justice and the immigration services, by clearing a problem area with a blanket amnesty.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595193#Comment_118595193

It is what it is, until it's not.

If enough resistance and condemnation appears over this idea, then they will retract it. They're relying on people rolling over and simply allowing it to happen.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595165#Comment_118595165

You've contradicted yourself there. We want an amnesty for Irish in USA, but we can't be seen to be trying to make it one sided, by only giving amnesty to any US citizens here? Why not?

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595338#Comment_118595338

I understand your point on regulation and that point. They are breaking the law etc. But there is 'breaking the law' and 'BREAKING THE LAW'. I had an uncle who went over to America decades. Turned out he stayed over there illegally. He could not come back to Ireland for his mother's funeral etc.

The issue is more complex than simply 'illegal and legal'. If a person as an illegal immigrant/undocumented has made a contribution to the country they are in = put down roots? What do you do then? Uproot them is it?

That is why we as Irish people should be very careful about the narrative against illegal immigrants. As many Irish people throughout the years would know of a relative or friend who made their life abroad as an illegal immigrant.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595380#Comment_118595380

Not really, just nobody is really bothered as its not a big deal.

Its like when the MUP came in. Posters here were screaming blue murder yet there wasn't a peep from the general population as its just not that big of a deal.

I live in a multi-ethnic neighborhood. I work in an even more diverse workplace. I have friends here from all over the world. Some are legal, some are not. All are good people, working hard and getting on with their lives. Their kids go to the local schools, play for the local teams etc.

You see the problem with the fear mongering on this thread is it doesn't stack up when compared to peoples real-life experiences. Its like when the gay marriage referendum campaigns were being run. All the winning side had to do was to focus on what people already knew i.e. their sons, daughters, brothers, sisters who were members of the LGBTQ+ communities and their experiences of inequality. Once that happened the No side couldn't compete against voters real-life experiences.

If enough resistance and condemnation appears over this idea, then they will retract it.

But thats just it, there is virtually no resistance or condemnation. As I said, this scheme will proceed without interruption

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595511#Comment_118595511

No, breaking the law is breaking the law. No amount of Paddy, ah shure whats the harm, changes that. It's this pathetic attitude that has this country a mess. Some laws are just guidelines, eh? Pathetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595511#Comment_118595511

Who gets to choose what laws we follow and those we don't? Better yet, do we get to choose what laws other people get to follow and those they don't?

It's still breaking the law. They're still showing contempt for the laws of the target nation, and are taking the place (and resources) of people will respect those laws.

The issue is more complex than simply 'illegal and legal'. If a person as an illegal immigrant/undocumented has made a contribution to the country they are in = put down roots? What do you do then? Uproot them is it?

No, it's not more complex. That's just so that people can attempt to rationalise breaking the law and find excuses for their behaviour. It's easy to make a contribution.. buy a paper in a newsstand, well done! you've paid tax and contributed.

As for putting down roots, yeah, uproot them because they shouldn't have settled down until they were ready to be "upstanding" members of that society (which would mean leaving and returning with a valid visa).

That is why we as Irish people should be very careful about the narrative against illegal immigrants. As many Irish people throughout the years would know of a relative or friend who made their life abroad as an illegal immigrant.

Actually, I know very few Irish who have been an illegal immigrant for longer than a year or two.. most returning home after they got tired of the life. And none of that changes my opinion on this. Deport all Irish people who are there illegally.

TBH the only narrative that I see we should be careful of, is this nonsense that it's perfectly acceptable for people to break immigration laws, and better yet, that they should be rewarded for it, with their past behaviour being ignored.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595555#Comment_118595555

I never said 'guidelines'. Your 'this is the reason this country is in a mess' line is a bit Joe Duffy caller type hysteria IMO. This country is one of the best run in Europe. And has no extremes of politics that have taken hold since its foundation.

In a court of law in general, a judge not only looks at the law itself - but looks on an issue in case by case basis. Crime committed, individual involved, any past offences, first offence, background, precedent etc. And tries to show compassion within the rules of law as dictated by the state as far as practicable - where the Judge sees fit.

Life is not like the stereotypical boards.ie thread where everything is black or white. Rightly or wrongly.

Life is much more nuanced especially with the passage of time - in issues such as illegal immigrants.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595544#Comment_118595544

Not really, just nobody is really bothered as its not a big deal.

There's a big difference over no public debate and it not being a big deal. Both the politicians and the media have seriously avoided raising anything negative about the initiative, praising it in vague terms, but not examining it in any way, that the average Irish person could really become informed.

You see the problem with the fear mongering on this thread is it doesn't stack up when compared to peoples real-life experiences. Its like when the gay marriage referendum campaigns were being run. All the winning side had to do was to focus on what people already knew i.e. their sons, daughters, brothers, sisters who were members of the LGBTQ+ communities and their experiences of inequality. Once that happened the No side couldn't compete against voters real-life experiences.

Fear mongering? if that was the case, then it would be easy, really easy, by referring to the immigration history of other countries to disprove their claims and concerns. As far as I can see, both on this thread, and on other threads related to immigration, the pro-crowd really struggle to counter the points made. Oh, sure, there are some extreme posters (it's the internet after all) with vague ideas and exaggerated outrage, but generally speaking the concerns are rooted in what's happened in the rest of Europe.

Just as we see these silly comparisons. Gay marriage has nothing to do with this situation. Neither does the MUP. Different scenarios entirely with completely different types of consequences. Just as the ability to stand up and provide reasonable objections were entirely different. Those comparisons don't have any logical basis... except to project some nutty guilt trip in opposing gay marriage is the same as opposing migrant amnesty.

But thats just it, there is virtually no resistance or condemnation. As I said, this scheme will proceed without interruption

Oh, you're probably right, although I'm starting to see (offline) more people commenting on it, and asking questions about what comes after. Few people know the details on what's being proposed, or how it will affect them.

As I said though, there is almost no publicity on this initiative except for what promotes it in a positive light. Once people start hearing the negatives (if that happens), we might see a different response from the public.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595689#Comment_118595689

As I said though, there is almost no publicity on this initiative

Because its not a big deal

Honestly, I'm hoping its way more than the estimated 17k.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595638#Comment_118595638

Put on your big boy pants and own what you said. "there is 'breaking the law' and 'BREAKING THE LAW'" is exactly what you said, some laws aren't to be taken as seriously as others. It's a pathetic attitude.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595787#Comment_118595787

Honestly, I'm hoping its way more than the estimated 17k.

I don't understand that... why?

You want there to be more people who weren't eligible for our basic visa requirements to be passed just because they managed a life here illegally?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595787#Comment_118595787

Another very bizarre post. It's one thing to have to deal with the issue of illegal immigration. However, it's quite another to welcome it as something desirable and to articulate the need for more.

Be careful what you wish for. When the true numbers availing of this scheme are made public, the Irish people may not be nearly as receptive as you envisage. Frankly, given your borderline illogical utterances on this thread, I can't help but wonder about your motivations and whether you have skin in the game, so to speak.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595884#Comment_118595884

Why not

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595914#Comment_118595914

I need to have "skin in the game" to support this? Now that IS an illogical utterance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596015#Comment_118596015

Why not

No. I've posted many times to the thread explaining my objections to the amnesty and the problems of illegal immigrants. Don't deflect. Answer the question, and don't be vague.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596043#Comment_118596043

I've posted many times to the thread explaining my support to the amnesty and the benefits of making illegal immigrants, legal.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595844#Comment_118595844

That is not what I mean - there is nuance in law. I have studied law in the past. And so I can appreciate the nuances here. The law is not black and white believe it or not. It is not pathetic attitude, it is just a deeper understanding of how law and the legal system operates. Laws and attitudes change. Laws are changed because of a change in attitude.

Such nuances change with time. For example there is the question of the Country of Origin of any illegal immigrant. Are they just economic migrants? Or are they fleeing because of the political situation? - so on and so forth. How long has an individual spent in Ireland and so on. Have they contributed to the community etc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118595787#Comment_118595787

I've no doubt you are.

Don't worry it will be way more than 17,000 and it will also be recurring every few years. It will also allow for family reunification etc etc...

The scam needs to continue....

The scheme is open from today for applications from asylum seekers 😎

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/44a1f-international-protection-strand-of-the-regularisation-scheme-for-long-term-undocumented-migrants-now-open-for-applications/

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596121#Comment_118596121

Some twisting, turning and squirming going on. If someone is fleeing persecution etc, there are legal avenues for that. They are assessed and should they qualify for asylum there are legally here, if they are found not to qualify for asylum they should be repatriated. There is no nuance. How long they have been here should have zero bearing, nor should their "contribution" to the community. Some wishy-washy unmeasurable nonsense.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594898#Comment_118594898

Ah sure Baby Irish Hitler will sort it out.

By the time the gubberment are finished putting Trans Immigrant Jihadists under everyone's bed he will just be maturing to fix it all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596119#Comment_118596119

Bloody hell.. you made the statement. I asked you to clarify.. and you answered with a question.. and when asked not to deflect.... you deflect.

This is exactly the problem with the pro-amnesty/pro-mass immigration/pro-multiculturalism crowd. You simply won't commit to answering questions and defending your own statements, preferring to deflect, and/or add vague feel good posts that ultimately are very short with any practical considerations for what comes after the feel-good initiative is implemented.

I give up. Not going to chase you.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596198#Comment_118596198

That is just the nuance of life IMO. Laws and legislation change based on what the public ergo the government decide as people who represent the public.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40758132.html

If you look closely at Minister Mcentee's proposal - it is stated that in order to receive an amnesty 'certain criteria must be met'

'The scheme will include a parallel process to implement the recommendation included in the report of the expert advisory group, led by Dr Catherine Day, by allowing international protection applicants who have an outstanding application for international protection and have been in the asylum process for a minimum of two years to apply.'

Also in order to apply for amnesty the applicant must have four years of residency in Ireland, three years in the case of children.

--

I honestly don't see the fuss you have about it to be honest. Perhaps you should look deeper into the issues at hand, beyond the headlines?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596121#Comment_118596121

here is nuance in law. I have studied law in the past. And so I can appreciate the nuances here

I loved this bit. Priceless attempt at a slapdown and superiority complex. I've studied the law, and I understand it better than you (without knowing your own background, or you have also studied it). Hilarious. No.. really.. pure gold. 😂

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596241#Comment_118596241

Like I said, I've posted many times to the thread explaining my support to the amnesty and the benefits of making illegal immigrants, legal.

Feel free to review my posts within this thread. You've argued against most of them already so you should be fully aware of what they contain

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596264#Comment_118596264

Nothing to do with background and so on. Anyone can study it. My point was there is nuance in law and I am aware of it - it is not black and white in general.

I suggest posters look at the citizen information website which clearly sets out the criteria for Amnesty-

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/rights_of_residence_in_ireland/permission_to_remain_for_undocumented_noneea_nationals_in_ireland.html#l17273

You may qualify for the scheme if:

• You are undocumented in Ireland, or you are an international protection applicant
• You meet the residence rules
• You have the documentation and identification needed
• You have not been convicted of serious criminal offences
• You are not a threat to national security
• You pay the application fee (if required)

--

The application fee is:

€700 for a family

€550 for an individual

No fee for international protection applicants--

--

Application can be refused if -

• you have been convicted of serious criminal offences. You must declare all criminal convictions as part of your application.
• Your application could be refused if you are deemed a threat to national security.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596314#Comment_118596314

That's irrelevant. We've all seen the proposed initiative and what it contains. We've all read a variety of articles on the topic, and gone over what was contributed to the thread itself.

You're arguing the point of nuance in the application of the law, but the truth is that the core elements of any law remain the same regardless of nuance. It is after the law is applied, and judgment is being served, that nuance comes into play. You see, I've also studied law, and understand how the law is negotiated through the system.

However, the core elements of the laws remain. It is illegal to be in Ireland without the permission of the State, and that permission comes in the guise of visas being extended. References to Asylum seekers or others that fall into other classifications don't matter, because the vast majority of those illegal migrants to be covered under the Amnesty, relate to either the entry of the country without visas, or those who failed to renew/qualify for new visas. As such, they failed the basic requirements for visa applications, otherwise they would have availed of the option, along with all the benefits that are available to those legally within the country. This Amnesty involves the government interfering with the workings of the State for political considerations.. and fails to recognise/acknowledge the dangers involved in such an action.

You're seeking to drift away from the original objections to your posts, just as you're drifting away from justifying Irish people living illegally in the US, and the attempt to link that with the Amnesty here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596275#Comment_118596275

Your previous posts were not based on the statement of wanting more illegal immigrants here (than the 17-30k already here) and them being eligible for such an amnesty. Oh, I'm aware of your points for supporting the amnesty, but you're refusing to defend the statement I queried.

As I said, I'm not going to chase you on this. You don't want to defend your statements fine, but don't pretend that this is something you've already addressed previously.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596419#Comment_118596419

My reasons for support do not change whether the number is 17k, 70k or 170k, they remain the the same

Hopefully that settles matters for you

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596260#Comment_118596260

What are you talking about, this amnesty has nothing to do with "nuances in the law", it over rides the law!!